The M8 upgrade does not make sense at all!

[nrb]

It's good for the economy that Leica can sell their stuff at premium prices. Besides, their cameras are all made in Portugal...
;-)

 

[Parchiao]

The TRS-80 Model one came with 4K of ram, basically a B&W tv without the tuner section as a monitor and used a cassette player as storage and to load programs from. They later added an interface to it that allowed more memory and the ability to add 5.25 floppy drives, single sided drives that held 70K on each floppy. My Model 1 without the interface cost $799. You had to pay for it up front and wait a few weeks for it to be delivered to the Radio Shack store.

Ah, when computing was still and adventure!

Sure brings back fond memories.

I remember having to type in the codes for a blackjack program in BASIC everytime I wanted to play with it because the casette player was always eating up the tape. I must have typed in the numerous lines of code so many times that programming became so logical, and has stayed with me since. And this was about somethihg like 30 years ago when I was just a 7 year old kid!

I sure hope that my upcoming R-D1s will do what the TRS-80 did for me.

 

[slm]

I don't think that will ever happen again, and it's not because the technology won't stabilize, but because we live in a world where (especially the U.S. part of the world) obsolescence is essential to the economy and our survival. If a country's economy depends on consumers buying stuff, then stuff must be short lived.

Now, that same consumer economy cast serious doubt on our still being around in 50 years...but, that's another story.

Yet we shouldn't support a company that might (I don't know for sure, just seems like it from this angle) be doing something different with their products by retarding obsolescence ?

 

[parsec1]

"The egg was a brick the brick was a bird haven't you heard"

Leica just anounced an upgrade to a completely redesigned full frame sensor at the end of this year.

 

[parsec1]

Last weeks Amateur photographer on the front page" Leica hints ar full frame" Exclusive interview with Leicas CEO Steven Lee. Page 4 "when the full frame model is ready we will do what is right" seems its going to be a CCD sensor "because they deliver better dynamic range than CMOS" Lee says Photokina would be the most likely venue to announce it.
Regards
P

 

[slm]

lol

Leica's motives for whatever they are doing have, I'm sure, little to do with "retarding obsolescence." Their past efforts at retarding obsolescence (by building cameras that will last 50 years) is why they are competing against the used market in their old cameras today.

Whatever it is Leica is up to, it would seem to me to be to encourage obsolescence. Keep the box, but replace the stuff in it frequently at a couple of grand a pop. Clearly, a much better strategy for their financial future than they had with their film cameras that don't need to be replaced or upgraded.

Ya, their motives are surely profit oriented. In this case, I'm not even trying to determine their motives. They don't change the fact that you're keeping the "base" and upgrading the features. When you remodel your kitchen, do you tear down the house first ? When you purchase your house, do you buy the model that must be torn down first to actually get a new kitchen ? How about, I have to sell my old house cause I want a new kitchen ?

 

[Ben Z]

Last weeks Amateur photographer on the front page" Leica hints ar full frame" Exclusive interview with Leicas CEO Steven Lee. Page 4 "when the full frame model is ready we will do what is right" seems its going to be a CCD sensor "because they deliver better dynamic range than CMOS" Lee says Photokina would be the most likely venue to announce it.
Regards
P

If just dropping in a modular shutter and glueing on a new cover glass costs $1800, how much might replacing the sensor plus all related electronics cost? Remember there will also have to be at least a new set of frameline masks, if not a return to the 0.72x magnification. I'm thinking it'll run at least $3500. Add that to the $1800 (unless the FF sensor can work with the old shutter, and Leica will still re-warranty the camera if the shutter isn't changed) and you've poured $5300 into it. That's a total cash outlay of over $10,000. How exactly is that better for us than if Leica just makes a FF M9 and charges $7500?

 

[RIVI1969]

I really hope Leica releases its M9 FF camera so I can get a non-upgraded M8 for $2500-3000 for next Christmas...

 

[dee]

My daughter , though studying photography in college [ at that time , new Minolta 7000i ] has embraced modern digital cameras [ and , as a book designer , the mac generation] - she does not / would not , have any use for a camera with so-called traditional controls and a style straight out of the dust of the past .

Tradition now , is a contoured plastic seeming [ even if it is metal ] blob with all the controls by buttons and menus .

That's fine by me , I am in the process of '' buying up '' , which is how it seems , two examples of pseudo trad cameras - a Leica Dig 3 and Panasonic L 1 .

Outdated in performance [ substance ? ] . style ; and it seems, visible excellence of construction and finish .

I am certain that many DSLRs are better made , more durable - but to my 1947 autistic frozen , gaze - they don't look it , indeed , they don't register as '' cameras '' ! OOPS !!!

I just need my old style cameras to see me out , still working , making fair and reasonable considered snapshots - just as my Minolta SRs/ SRv / SRT- and recently . Leica II / IIIc / IIIf still continue to do.

It's just not sensible to try and bring the values of the 50s / 60s - even 70s , to a technically fast track generation , the best bet is to buy obsolete [ Pentax K 10 D ] , so at least you don't have a shock coming !

Any way , it's not just the camera which will need replacing every 5 [ reducing to 4/3/2/1/ years time ?] - but the whole damned computer interface and software -
making it impossible , maybe , to access those outdated '' files '' which , once upon a time , were called '' negs ''

Who knows - maybe we will be archiving to film ?

 

[rsl]

Any way , it's not just the camera which will need replacing every 5 [ reducing to 4/3/2/1/ years time ?] - but the whole damned computer interface and software -
making it impossible , maybe , to access those outdated '' files '' which , once upon a time , were called '' negs ''

Who knows - maybe we will be archiving to film ?

That's exactly why Leica had enough sense to adopt the Adobe .DNG format -- the only raw format whose design is open to anyone who wants to work with it.

The M8, in spite of perpetual care, may soon end up on the dustbin of history, but its .DNG files will go on.

I only wish Nikon had gone to .DNG with the D3. Eventually they, and Canon, as well as the rest of them will have to go to some common raw format -- most likely .DNG.

 

[parsec1]

Money fpr pics

Money fpr pics

Certainly have. Made 20 grand (GBP) worldwide on a single picture taken in a local hospital of a certain 18yr old who took one ecstacy pill and paid the ultimate price for it back in the mid 1990s. I would have gladly given up the dosh for her life but by the time I was allowed into the hospital to take the picture it was too late anyway.
Was working as full time pro on the National Press before my present medical problems. Her parents invited me to the hospital to take the picture before they had the machines switched off.

 

[Paul Jenkin]

Hi Russell.

I'm interested in your comment regarding the the M8 and obsolescence. I haven't got one - but would really like one. However, if as reported in Amateur Photographer this week, Leica brings out a full-frame update in the next year or so, can you really see the price of an M8 dropping significantly?

The reason I ask is that second-hand M6, M7 and other Leica film camera prices have held up better than any other, from what I can see. Lenses, for the ,ost part, will be interchangeable and digital is currently 'all the rage'.

I'd be happy if you were right as I'd have no hesitation buying one.

Paul.

 

[rsl]

Hi Russell.

I'm interested in your comment regarding the the M8 and obsolescence. I haven't got one - but would really like one. However, if as reported in Amateur Photographer this week, Leica brings out a full-frame update in the next year or so, can you really see the price of an M8 dropping significantly?

The reason I ask is that second-hand M6, M7 and other Leica film camera prices have held up better than any other, from what I can see. Lenses, for the ,ost part, will be interchangeable and digital is currently 'all the rage'.

I'd be happy if you were right as I'd have no hesitation buying one.

Paul.

Paul,

I'm certainly no seer. I don't even wear a turban. But with a thirty year background in software engineering and a more than 60 year background in photography -- as a serious amateur and sometime professional -- a couple of things jump out at me.

First, I question the ability of Leica or anyone else to produce a full-frame camera that can handle Leica-mount lenses. The lens has to sit too far back in the box and too close to the sensor to allow enough collimation to overcome the inability of CCD or CMOS photosites to handle photons coming at them from the acute angle necessary to reach the corners of the frame. Maybe someone has or will come up with a new kind of sensor that can handle photons arriving at that angle, or a new way to use micro-mirrors to overcome the problem, but since this is much less a problem in DSLRs, there'd have to be a pretty big demand for a full-frame rangefinder to make that kind of research and development economically reasonable.

Second, the M8, unlike a film camera, is nothing more than a computer with a lens and a sensor connected to it. We've hardly begun to scratch the surface of the possibilities computer science offers, and as I implied earlier with references to the TRS-80 and the Osborne-1, computer science moves along so rapidly that everything -- everything associated with computers becomes obsolete in a very short period of time. I remember the prediction Adam Osborne made shortly after he came out with the Osborne-1, that portable computers would never be able to use internal hard drives because the drives will always be too fragile. It seemed reasonable at the time. So, since underneath the neat M-type box, the M8 is nothing more than a computer, it seems to me it's going to be subject to the same laws that apply to all the computer gear I've seen since microcomputing got a foothold. In fact, with the advent of the Nikon D3, the M8 sensor already is obsolete, and, as far as I've been able to determine, the M8 processor and software both were obsolete the day they came out.

Finally, we have Leica's insane decision to provide "perpetual care" for the M8 instead of simply admitting it was a fiasco and getting on with an M9. Of course, if they're really working on an M9 it would be pretty stupid marketing to admit it and shut off sales of the M8 as people wait for the M9, so maybe that's exactly what they're doing. Who knows? Certainly no one on this forum who'd be allowed to tell us. In any case, if the "perpetual care" decision is for real, the M8 as a serious camera will be dead in a very few years. No one in his right mind is going to pay the prices Leica would have to ask to upgrade the sensor and processor at regular intervals, nor would a sane person be willing to put up with the incompetent logistic system Leica seems to have in place even for routine maintenance.

As far as the price of an M8 dropping is concerned, that's a different question. From what I've read and seen, it seems to me that Leica's begun pitching the M8 to a group of people who want the camera mostly for nostalgic reasons or as jewelry. I know that statement will raise a huge outcry from people who claim to be doing professional shoots with the M8. And I've seen some very wonderful work from the M8 -- starting with some by JaapV, who's been one of the few sensible voices on these fora. But seeing the failure rate of the M8 and the endless difficulty people seem to have getting repairs, let's just say I'm skeptical. If the main market for the M8 is would-be Cartier-Bressons and jewelry flashers the price may stay absurdly high, even after the camera has ceased to be even remotely competitive.

It probably sounds as if I'm being unnecessarily hard onLeica, but I owned, used, and loved two M-series Leicas back in the sixties and seventies and I was elated when I read that Leica was finally coming out with a digital M. But then I started reading the fora, as I always do when I'm thinking about making a fairly substantial investment in new technology and found that it would be better to wait and see. I've waited and I've seen, and, as I said about a year ago on this forum, it's a heartbreaker. If Leica or anyone else comes out with a really reliable M-series camera, I'll jump on it, just as I jumped on the Nikon D3 -- but not until I've had a chance to do a bit of research.

Best regards,

 

[rvaubel]

Folks

I think the main functional value of the Leica M8 is its size. I have and use my 20D, but when I want to travel light, there is no other camera that can fit the bill other than an RD1. This isn't just a theoritical consideration. I can "palm" the M8 in my hand with only a wriststrap (Luigi's is very small). The whole camera/lens package is hardly bigger than a G9 but with much better sensitivity and much better optics. In other words the M8 is a pocketable, stealth camera with file quality rivaling a 5D full frame.

Plus, of course it has much greater foundle value than any plastic DSLR. The Leica name and its superb range of lenses, doesn't hurt either. Oh I know I am a snob. But I'd still rather check the time with my IWC TZC automatic mechanical watch while fondling my blued Colt Python . Sure a stainless and plastic semiauto might be more practical. And a battery powered Swatch might keep better time.

Thanks, but no thanks,

Rex, the troglydidic wonder dog.... arf...arf, arf!!

 

[ZebGoesZeiss]

My take:
I own the M8. And like every other person out there who bought it, I guess we all thought about all that money we spent on the camera. To me, it was the most expensive camera I've ever bought, but I sold of a Noctilux and that covered most of the price. OK, so the camera is paid for.

Leica is offering me an upgrade path. Great! If I can keep paying them 1800 USD every 2 or 3 years, and in return get a "up to date camera" and a new waranty - what's not to like? 1800 USD is cash, sure. But I spend more than that keeping my dSLR up to date already. The interesting part is: What will "up to date" mean? Some upgrade to the sensor would be mandatory in my case. Full frame? Sure, bring it on.

The one thing I can't see is them selling the current M8 in five years time:
- 10MP sensor
- crop factor
- $25,000 worth of upgrades available? Nah.

Picture this: You walk in to a camera store in 2013 and ask to pay $5-6000 for 7 year old technology? Ain't gonna happen. This part of it is like going to Apple and buying an iBook G3 600MHz for $1500. "It's still a working tool" I hear you say. Well, it might be - but it doesn't make sense, does it?

In Leica's case: Most of the stuff that is in the M8 now will be obsolete in five years time. I can't see Kodak producing those 10MP sensors by then.

In my opinion: Leica can do both. Sell a base model (that is updated every 12-18 month), AND sell upgrades to existing users.

 

[pizzahut88]

My take:
I own the M8. And like every other person out there who bought it, I guess we all thought about all that money we spent on the camera. To me, it was the most expensive camera I've ever bought, but I sold of a Noctilux and that covered most of the price. OK, so the camera is paid for.

Leica is offering me an upgrade path. Great! If I can keep paying them 1800 USD every 2 or 3 years, and in return get a "up to date camera" and a new waranty - what's not to like? 1800 USD is cash, sure. But I spend more than that keeping my dSLR up to date already. The interesting part is: What will "up to date" mean? Some upgrade to the sensor would be mandatory in my case. Full frame? Sure, bring it on.

The one thing I can't see is them selling the current M8 in five years time:
- 10MP sensor
- crop factor
- $25,000 worth of upgrades available? Nah.

Picture this: You walk in to a camera store in 2013 and ask to pay $5-6000 for 7 year old technology? Ain't gonna happen. This part of it is like going to Apple and buying an iBook G3 600MHz for $1500. "It's still a working tool" I hear you say. Well, it might be - but it doesn't make sense, does it?

In Leica's case: Most of the stuff that is in the M8 now will be obsolete in five years time. I can't see Kodak producing those 10MP sensors by then.

In my opinion: Leica can do both. Sell a base model (that is updated every 12-18 month), AND sell upgrades to existing users.

Hi Zeb,

Concerning what Leica will likely do, I think you have nailed it.

And once we have full frame . . . any increase in megapixels will be almost meaningless. We are reaching the plateau of 'good enough' quality.

Just look at desktop scanner dpi values,
where more dpi is almost pointless save for marketing purpose.

 

[Ben Z]

Folks

I think the main functional value of the Leica M8 is its size. I have and use my 20D, but when I want to travel light, there is no other camera that can fit the bill other than an RD1. This isn't just a theoritical consideration.

I have M8 and 20D and had an RD1 and I couldn't agree more. If it weren't for the size (volume not weight) I would've stuck to the 20D and never spent the money for an M8.

As to the upgrade plan, I like it because it assures a higher resale value on my M8 than if Leica discontinued it. However I don't really believe Leica for a second that they are going to keep upgrading the M8 indefinitely. Maybe one or two more minor upgrades like this one, until they have the full-frame M9 ready for prime time.

I shot an event yesterday for some friends, it was a small quiet room with a clergyman speaking. I was about 6 ft in front of him and took about a hundred shots with the M8. Nobody said a word, nobody even looked in my direction. I asked a few people nearby later if they thought my camera was loud and they all said they didn't notice it at all. So much for needing a quieter shutter, especially one that's still motorized.

 

[ZebGoesZeiss]

Hi Zeb,

And once we have full frame . . . any increase in megapixels will be almost meaningless. We are reaching the plateau of 'good enough' quality.

Well, MP matters like MHz did in our computers ten years ago - until Intel and the rest started to make other changes (multicore processors). There will continue to be changes long after the MP race is over, things like better ISO noise reduction. I bet my M8 that there will be sensors that actually challenge the optical quality of the lenses we are using today, including the fine stuff Leica puts out.

I'm sure there are people that would live happily with their M8 like it is today, but if the M8 is still being sold in 5 years time (without any major revision to the base model) something has gone very wrong.

 

[rsl]

Well, MP matters like MHz did in our computers ten years ago - until Intel and the rest started to make other changes (multicore processors). There will continue to be changes long after the MP race is over, things like better ISO noise reduction. I bet my M8 that there will be sensors that actually challenge the optical quality of the lenses we are using today, including the fine stuff Leica puts out.

I'm sure there are people that would live happily with their M8 like it is today, but if the M8 is still being sold in 5 years time (without any major revision to the base model) something has gone very wrong.

Zeb,

You put your finger on the situation.

The D3 sensor already challenges the optical qualities of many available lenses and I'm sure there's better coming. As far as megapixels are concerned, I was flabbergasted when I read that Nikon was coming out with a 12 megapixel full-frame camera. What are they thinking? Canon's new top-of-the-line box is 21 megapixels. How can Nikon compete with 12? Well, Nikon blew Canon right out of the water with the D3. The D3 is the most astonishing camera I've ever held in my hands, and I've been holding cameras in my hands since about 1942. Yes, if you plan to do wall-sized prints and the light is good, the EOS1-Ds Mk III may be better -- provided you don't mind the aggressive smoothing the camera has to do to overcome noise problems, but even better is the Hasselblad H3D with 39 megapixels. Yep, there's a noticeable price difference between the two cameras, but if you're doing cigarette ads you can afford the difference. The D3 is right where it needs to be -- not just with its almost unbelievably high ISO capability, but with the images you get from the processor. If anyone really thinks megapixels are the end-all of digital camera development, they should do some shooting with this camera that's "handicapped" with only 12 megapixels.

You're right. Anyone who's satisfied with the M8 can go on using it until it turns to dust -- as long as maintenance is available. I use my R-D1 on the street a lot and I like it. For street work its 6 megapixel sensor is okay. The problem with that camera is going to come when it breaks down and I need maintenance that's not available. The same thing's going to be true of the M8 if Leica goes out of the camera business, which they may if they stay in their current dream world. They've about exhausted the Leica enthusiast market out there, though several people on these fora will deny that, and it's going to be really hard for them to come up with a second act. It would be a good deal if they'd just suck up the M8 fiasco and get on with an M9 that's reliable. They might also want to work on their comical logistic system before the complaints get even louder. On the other hand they may not be able to afford to do either or those things. Yes, I know they're being supported by a very wealthy backer, but there's a reason wealthy backers are wealthy, and it's not stupidity.

 

[sleepyhead]

There seems to be a lot more second hand M8s for sale on Ebay since Leica made their upgrade anouncement - I guess some people thought they better cut their loses now while they can still fetch a reasonable price...