rsl
Russell
sitemistic said:
Yes, if that's the kind of photography you like to do, you should buy an EOS 1Ds Mk III. It's great for tripod-supported newspaper-on-the-wall shots. About the only thing that can beat it for newspaper-on-the-wall shots is the Hasselblad.
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
sleepyhead said:
Huh? Could you please explain the reasoning behing this theory?
slm
Formerly nextreme
sitemistic said:
It'll be fun to see how the new Sony Exmoor in the soon to be A900 will do
slm
Formerly nextreme
rsl, your post on this thread was interesting, but I'm wondering, how is offering an upgrade path on the leica M8 (think system, since it is a computer with a lens and sensor) any different from a company performing upgrades to their system thats been running since the '70's, written in cobol, running on technology was state of the art in 1970 ?
rsl
Russell
nextreme said:
That's a fair question. I know a guy who still does COBOL maintenance and upgrades. He's in great demand. The difference is that those antique COBOL systems being maintained are in banks and similar outfits. They aren't in microcomputers that are competing for individual customers and they aren't in cameras whose companies are trying to be competitive.
I certainly could be wrong, but I just can't see the advantage of buying a new camera in an old box every few years instead of buying a new camera in a new box. Costwise the "perpetual care" path is probably going to be more expensive than a straight replacement path -- the kind of path available from Canon and Nikon, etc. Also, with replacement you don't have to send your old camera back through an incompetent logistic system and wait for months to get it back. You have your new camera right away. The shipping costs are less too. You only have to ship the new camera one way.
But that's just me. There may very well be Leicaphiles out there who are willing to put up with the extra expense and a gradually degrading shell to keep their "original" M8s. I guess time will tell.
slm
Formerly nextreme
rsl said:
Well, I can agree with the cost being a deciding factor. I'm not sure though that an upgrade path is more expensive than a replacement one. I guess a next generation digital M would have to be released to truly determine that.
Cheers.
pizzahut88
Well-known
nextreme said:
Pity . . . I have been looking at the Sony Alpha.
Good sensors is only half way winnning the race.
Where are the good lenses?
Things like Noct 50/1, or Nok 35/1.2.
Even the Elmar 50/2.8 is tough to beat.
The inexpensive cheap (as to price) Nokton Classic 40/1.4 sees no match in the Alpha lineup. Not to mention the ZM C Sonnar 50/1.5.
See - having a good FF sensor is only winning half the battle at most.
photogdave
Shops local
Um, have you tried their Carl Zeiss lenses? 85mm 1.4, 135mm 1.8, some good zooms. I've shot some stuff with these. They are really nice. Pricey but nice. Sound familiar?pizzahut88 said:
pizzahut88
Well-known
photogdave said:
I have . . .
I have tried/played with every single one of the Alpha lenses at the Sony Showroom.
In particular the Zeiss ones, and the guy there hated me for it.
The 85/1.4 and 135/1.8 is good
I look forward to trying 24-70/2.8.
I hope they put out more fast primes.
photogdave
Shops local
Yes, especially some wides! I was able to make some 8x10 prints from shots with the 85 and 135. I was really blown away!pizzahut88 said:
nrb
Nuno Borges
I may buy the new full frame M9, provided it costs half the price of the older M8.
;-)
;-)
rsl
Russell
nextreme said:
Okay. Let's say the price is the same. Right now Canon and Nikon are bringing out really new top-of-the-line cameras about every three years. I'm not counting the incremental changes in cameras like the D2Xs, etc. For the incremental stuff, Leica's plan probably makes some sense, except for the fact that you lose your camera for a painfully long time while they add the increments.
But Canon's and Nikon's really new cameras are based on significant breakthroughs in technlolgy. If Leica's going to come close to keeping up with the technology, they're going to have to change most of the guts of the M8 within about three years. That means a new sensor, new shutter, probably a new rangefinder, a new processor, and new firmware. Ignoring the fact that Leica hasn't even been able to make a firmware change good enough to solve the M8's WB problem, let's assume they can provide all those new goodies and put them in your old M8 box. What do you suppose the price is going to be for replacing essentially the whole camera except for the box? As I said, let's assume the price is the same as the price of a new camera, though it's an assumption that calls for a major suspension of disbelief. Now you have a box with three years' worth of dings and wear, but with new guts. I guess you could tell yourself that you still have your good old M8. But I doubt there are enough people out there dumb enough to buy that approach to keep Leica in business.
I've been around a long time and I'm not any happier than anyone else with the kind of throw-away civilization we've built ourselves. I loved having cameras I could use for decades. But being unhappy with the situation doesn't change it. The kind of technology we have at the moment calls for a lot of throwing away. Maybe somewhere down the line it'll settle down. At the moment, Leica's living in the past. If they can't change that mindset they're on a path to extinction.
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rsl
Russell
sitemistic said:
In other words I was right when I suggested that Leica buyers mostly are buying for nostalgia or for jewelry?
rsl
Russell
I suspect a lot of them are buying the M8 because they already have a collection of Leica lenses and want a digital camera they can use them on. I'm pretty sure that's what drove the R-D1. And I have to admit, if you have a collection of Leica glass, buying the camera probably makes sense. If we're both right, all the more reason for Leica to forget about perpetual care for the M8 and move on to the M9.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Hmmm. A bit behind times? That problem- as far as it was a problem as it only was relevant for the 2 Jpeg users in the world-was solved for 100% three weeks ago....rsl said:
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
No - what he is saying that there is a large number of people out there for whom 10.000$ is not a large amount of money, giving them freedom of choice......rsl said:
rsl
Russell
jaapv said:
Right, Jaap, but why choose Leica? There are a lot of other choices around. I'm not knocking it, but I'm wondering about the "why." I've thought all along that in the beginning it was having Leica lenses on hand and wanting to be able to use them with a really good digital camera. Later on, after Leica raised their already absurd prices I began to see that they were pitching to a difference audience.
rsl
Russell
jaapv said:
Yes, I wondered why it was a problem. Could there actually be Leicaphiles shooting .jpeg? On the other hand, why am I still reading posts about bad WB?
slm
Formerly nextreme
rsl said:
Hey rsl, interesting, but I don't think all of those components require changing for the camera to be brought up to a more current state. I think people would be happy with sensor upgrades first and foremost, which would call for a firmware update and possibly the A/D converter (which I *think* is built into the sensor, like the new Sony Exmor, so might not even be an issue). The rest of the components you list are icing I think.
Anyhow, like I said in another post somewhere, I'm not an M8 owner. I've never owned a Leica. But from where I'm sitting, their idea doesn't make them look like they're living in the past, quite the contrary, they're doing something that no other camera company offers.
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aizan
Veteran
"Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!"