P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
Kiu,
You have posed to me a very legitimate question -
From a technical point of view, I do not think that I will need too long to learn the ropes. My primary camera is still my Nikkormat FTn, so I am not reliant on AF/AE for most of my work. The biggest adjustment would be not having a TTL meter, but I already do not use a meter lot of the time, preferring to use my own judgement and experience to determine the exposure. Plus I know my way around a hand-held meter pretty well.
My indecision about purchasing a Nikon RF centers around two areas, noise and lens selection.
First is noise, I was ready to buy a Bessa with a Nokton 35mm f1.2 until I heard that the Bessa is not as quiet as the Leica M. I want a camera that is as silent as possible. And I am hearing the same thing about the Nikon RF's that they are noisey, well, compared to an M.
To me, a film camera is mostly about the lens, and the lens selection for the Nikon RF is quite limited. I was saddened to find out that Cosina is discontinuing their SC line. I wish they would have made lenses like the 40mm f1.4 and the 35mm f1.2 for the Nikon RF.
But I also appreciate consistency between cameras. Many years ago, I was going to switch to Olympus, but could not get used to the difference in the rotation of the aperture and focusing rings. The same reason why I have never used Canon. Knowing that everything on a Leica M goes opposite to my ingrained habits, could mean a lot of frustration and lost shots.
So the answer to Kiu's question is still to be found.
You have posed to me a very legitimate question -
And it is a question that I do not yet have an answer for.NIKON KIU said:
From a technical point of view, I do not think that I will need too long to learn the ropes. My primary camera is still my Nikkormat FTn, so I am not reliant on AF/AE for most of my work. The biggest adjustment would be not having a TTL meter, but I already do not use a meter lot of the time, preferring to use my own judgement and experience to determine the exposure. Plus I know my way around a hand-held meter pretty well.
My indecision about purchasing a Nikon RF centers around two areas, noise and lens selection.
First is noise, I was ready to buy a Bessa with a Nokton 35mm f1.2 until I heard that the Bessa is not as quiet as the Leica M. I want a camera that is as silent as possible. And I am hearing the same thing about the Nikon RF's that they are noisey, well, compared to an M.
To me, a film camera is mostly about the lens, and the lens selection for the Nikon RF is quite limited. I was saddened to find out that Cosina is discontinuing their SC line. I wish they would have made lenses like the 40mm f1.4 and the 35mm f1.2 for the Nikon RF.
But I also appreciate consistency between cameras. Many years ago, I was going to switch to Olympus, but could not get used to the difference in the rotation of the aperture and focusing rings. The same reason why I have never used Canon. Knowing that everything on a Leica M goes opposite to my ingrained habits, could mean a lot of frustration and lost shots.
So the answer to Kiu's question is still to be found.
VinceC
Veteran
Brian gave a good overview.
The S3 and SP have quiet shutters, though I believe Leica M shutters are supposed to be slightly quieter.
The consistency between cameras is what got me interested in Nikon RFs, along with a strong interest in history. I was doing newspaper work with Nikon SLRs in the late 1980s when I bought a Kiev 2 and, through it, gradually learned of the evolution of the Nikon RF system, which culminated in the SP followed two years later by the Nikon F, a camera I was then using. An S3 or SP handles exactly like an F except for the viewfinder and the smaller lenses.
Compared to SLRs, the Nikon RF lenses are expensive (though, as a rule, not as expensive as Leitz equivalents). But as Brian said, the Nikon RF world is a very limited universe. Nikon was a major RF producer for just nine years, and the assortment of lenses is quite limited. You have some early heavy collectibles. You have the main chrome-lens production run of the early-mid 1950s (and these chrome-barrel lenses can also be quite heavy for what they are) followed by black-barrel lenses of the later 1950s that are more expensive and much lighter; they were made in fewer qunatities because of the sudden and not fully anticipated success of the Nikon F.
The Nikon RF lenses are excellent lenses, but they are 50 years old and modern lenses have advantages. Some quirky Russian lenses also fit, but they have quality-control problems and flare problems compared to the Nikkors.
If you want to get into Nikon RFs as a user/shooter, you have to deal with an abandoned orphaned system that is as fully capable as Leica, but which is nonetheless different. It's for individualists.
The S3 and SP have quiet shutters, though I believe Leica M shutters are supposed to be slightly quieter.
The consistency between cameras is what got me interested in Nikon RFs, along with a strong interest in history. I was doing newspaper work with Nikon SLRs in the late 1980s when I bought a Kiev 2 and, through it, gradually learned of the evolution of the Nikon RF system, which culminated in the SP followed two years later by the Nikon F, a camera I was then using. An S3 or SP handles exactly like an F except for the viewfinder and the smaller lenses.
Compared to SLRs, the Nikon RF lenses are expensive (though, as a rule, not as expensive as Leitz equivalents). But as Brian said, the Nikon RF world is a very limited universe. Nikon was a major RF producer for just nine years, and the assortment of lenses is quite limited. You have some early heavy collectibles. You have the main chrome-lens production run of the early-mid 1950s (and these chrome-barrel lenses can also be quite heavy for what they are) followed by black-barrel lenses of the later 1950s that are more expensive and much lighter; they were made in fewer qunatities because of the sudden and not fully anticipated success of the Nikon F.
The Nikon RF lenses are excellent lenses, but they are 50 years old and modern lenses have advantages. Some quirky Russian lenses also fit, but they have quality-control problems and flare problems compared to the Nikkors.
If you want to get into Nikon RFs as a user/shooter, you have to deal with an abandoned orphaned system that is as fully capable as Leica, but which is nonetheless different. It's for individualists.
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
Now that's a great line!
VinceC
Veteran
To paraphrase Yogi Bera,
Nobody buys them anymore. They're too popular.
Nobody buys them anymore. They're too popular.
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NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku
Don't get me wrong the challege makes one a better photoghrapher, it sounds to me that you are as good of a candidate as there is to be found.P. Lynn Miller said:
Pesonally I think the issue of the shutter sound is spliting hair... one thing is for sure,all Nikon RF cameras are quiter than the Nikkormat FTn.
As Brian(and many before him) shows us, its not hard to make good pictures with the Nikon.
Indeed,the challenge is enjoyable.
Kiu
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P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
Well, I did a bit of hands-on research today. The only real camera shop left in town, stockist of Leica, Zeiss Ikon, Voigtlander, and has good used section, had a S2 and M3 for me to touch and feel. By chance they also had a Canon 7s. So here is my thoughts on each.
The Nikon S2 was chrome with an all black 5cm f1.4 lens. It was in very nice condition, so nice that the store manager was not sure he would even sell it to me when I told him I was not a collector but a user. The S2 felt strangely familar, like a old aquaintance that I had not met years, familar, but would need some time to get to know each other again. Unfortunately, I found it very fiddley to use, the focus wheel and that fact that whole lens assembly rotates freely, preventing aperture changes unless the lens was locked at infinity was a disconcerting. I wear eyeglasses, so I had trouble seeing the frame lines for in the viewfinder without moving my eye around the viewfinder. The view was dark and cramped compared to both the M3 and the Canon 7. It would take some time for me to become competent with the S2. It was the louder than the M3 but quieter than the Canon 7. It was also the smallest of the 3 cameras
The M3 was quiet, sturdy, smooth, everything you would expect from a Leica. The viewfinder was bright and clear, the layout was clean and convenient. Funny thing happened, I have been using my grandfathers Minolta Hi-Matic E, which focuses opposite to all my Nikon SLR's, but I found that I was able to focus with the M3 quicker and more naturally than the S2. I kept trying to focus the opposite way with the S2. So something in my brain must flip a switch when I put a rangerfinder to my eye. I find film loading the M3 completely annoying and almost stupid. I found the camera slightly bulky and not as intuitive as the S2. I definitely could get used to this camera. The quantity of lens available makes this camera very attractive, but the price tags attached to the Leica glass is not for the faint hearted.
The Canon 7 was a pleasant surprise. It was the largest, heaviest and loudest camera of the three, but the viewfinder was amazing. Very bright, must have a long eye point, since I could see even the 35mm frame lines without any trouble. The Canon was very nice, priced right $990 with a 50mm f1.4, but the size and noise was a put-off. The difference in noise, size and weight between a Nikon FM, FE, with a Nikkor 50mm f1.4 and the Canon 7 with the 50mm f1.4, well, there is nothing in it, and I would take the FM or FE any day.
To perfectly honest, I was disappointed in all three cameras. Maybe my expectations were too high. I found them all very noisy, compared to my Minolta Hi-Matic E and my dad's Olympus XA, both of which are almost silent. I want to love the Nikon S2, but found it cumbersome and ackward to use compared to the M3. The M3 seems to be the alround best choice as a user, but is not as quiet as I hoped. Also Leica glass is out of my budget. The Canon 7s was the coolest camera of the pack and fit my big hands the best, but is heavy, loud and way too big.
I am awaiting my excommunication from the Rangerfinder Forum for my condemning comments on everyone's favorite RF.
The Nikon S2 was chrome with an all black 5cm f1.4 lens. It was in very nice condition, so nice that the store manager was not sure he would even sell it to me when I told him I was not a collector but a user. The S2 felt strangely familar, like a old aquaintance that I had not met years, familar, but would need some time to get to know each other again. Unfortunately, I found it very fiddley to use, the focus wheel and that fact that whole lens assembly rotates freely, preventing aperture changes unless the lens was locked at infinity was a disconcerting. I wear eyeglasses, so I had trouble seeing the frame lines for in the viewfinder without moving my eye around the viewfinder. The view was dark and cramped compared to both the M3 and the Canon 7. It would take some time for me to become competent with the S2. It was the louder than the M3 but quieter than the Canon 7. It was also the smallest of the 3 cameras
The M3 was quiet, sturdy, smooth, everything you would expect from a Leica. The viewfinder was bright and clear, the layout was clean and convenient. Funny thing happened, I have been using my grandfathers Minolta Hi-Matic E, which focuses opposite to all my Nikon SLR's, but I found that I was able to focus with the M3 quicker and more naturally than the S2. I kept trying to focus the opposite way with the S2. So something in my brain must flip a switch when I put a rangerfinder to my eye. I find film loading the M3 completely annoying and almost stupid. I found the camera slightly bulky and not as intuitive as the S2. I definitely could get used to this camera. The quantity of lens available makes this camera very attractive, but the price tags attached to the Leica glass is not for the faint hearted.
The Canon 7 was a pleasant surprise. It was the largest, heaviest and loudest camera of the three, but the viewfinder was amazing. Very bright, must have a long eye point, since I could see even the 35mm frame lines without any trouble. The Canon was very nice, priced right $990 with a 50mm f1.4, but the size and noise was a put-off. The difference in noise, size and weight between a Nikon FM, FE, with a Nikkor 50mm f1.4 and the Canon 7 with the 50mm f1.4, well, there is nothing in it, and I would take the FM or FE any day.
To perfectly honest, I was disappointed in all three cameras. Maybe my expectations were too high. I found them all very noisy, compared to my Minolta Hi-Matic E and my dad's Olympus XA, both of which are almost silent. I want to love the Nikon S2, but found it cumbersome and ackward to use compared to the M3. The M3 seems to be the alround best choice as a user, but is not as quiet as I hoped. Also Leica glass is out of my budget. The Canon 7s was the coolest camera of the pack and fit my big hands the best, but is heavy, loud and way too big.
I am awaiting my excommunication from the Rangerfinder Forum for my condemning comments on everyone's favorite RF.
VinceC
Veteran
>>. Unfortunately, I found it very fiddley to use, the focus wheel and that fact that whole lens assembly rotates freely ...<<
That's something you simply have to get used to. It's different. However, once you gain some familiarity, then:
1. You learn that you can change apertures by holding the focus wheel with your thumb or a finger so that the lens doesn't rotate. In fact, lenses other than 50mm don't lock at infinity, so that's how you change apertures.
2. The focus wheel can be an advantage in some situations. After you've set the shutter speed and aperture, you can then bring the camera to you reye and shoot one-handed. That's helpful if you're climbing, holding a child with your other hand, carrying packages, holding a drink, etc.
Your post is very perceptive, and none of these cameras is perfect. To be truthful, there are many non-Leica lenses or older Leica lenses that will fit the M3 and, in many cases, match or exceed the Leitz lenses for less money. So don't let the cost of the glass scare you away from any of the models.
The S2 was Nikon's answer to Leica's LTM cameras, so it's not entirely fair to compare an S2 with an M3. Three years later, Nikon introduced the SP to compete head-to-head with the M3, so SP/M3 is a better way to compare features of both systems. The controls on the SP/S3 are identical to the controls of the Nikon F, with the exception of the viewfinder.
The reason you had trouble seeming the frames of the S2 is because the S2 finder is 1:1 lifesize magnification. That was the one change Nikon engineers incorporated when the M3 was introduced and they realized its features far exceeded the S2, which was still in development. The lifesize viewfinder allows two-eyed viewing (if you're a left-eyed shooter, you get two-eyed viewing while taking verticals).
Over time, this lifesize view of the Nikon RFs is what has made me so enthusiastic about the system. When I lift the camera to my eyes to make a picture, I see the world as it is, and can use the camera frame to isolate a segment of reality for a photograph. The camera is a window.
That's something you simply have to get used to. It's different. However, once you gain some familiarity, then:
1. You learn that you can change apertures by holding the focus wheel with your thumb or a finger so that the lens doesn't rotate. In fact, lenses other than 50mm don't lock at infinity, so that's how you change apertures.
2. The focus wheel can be an advantage in some situations. After you've set the shutter speed and aperture, you can then bring the camera to you reye and shoot one-handed. That's helpful if you're climbing, holding a child with your other hand, carrying packages, holding a drink, etc.
Your post is very perceptive, and none of these cameras is perfect. To be truthful, there are many non-Leica lenses or older Leica lenses that will fit the M3 and, in many cases, match or exceed the Leitz lenses for less money. So don't let the cost of the glass scare you away from any of the models.
The S2 was Nikon's answer to Leica's LTM cameras, so it's not entirely fair to compare an S2 with an M3. Three years later, Nikon introduced the SP to compete head-to-head with the M3, so SP/M3 is a better way to compare features of both systems. The controls on the SP/S3 are identical to the controls of the Nikon F, with the exception of the viewfinder.
The reason you had trouble seeming the frames of the S2 is because the S2 finder is 1:1 lifesize magnification. That was the one change Nikon engineers incorporated when the M3 was introduced and they realized its features far exceeded the S2, which was still in development. The lifesize viewfinder allows two-eyed viewing (if you're a left-eyed shooter, you get two-eyed viewing while taking verticals).
Over time, this lifesize view of the Nikon RFs is what has made me so enthusiastic about the system. When I lift the camera to my eyes to make a picture, I see the world as it is, and can use the camera frame to isolate a segment of reality for a photograph. The camera is a window.
P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
Vince,
Thanks for your thoughts and experience. I feel that I may have been too harsh with my judgements, but my opinions were formed after spending about 15 minutes with each camera. Which is basically a first impression summary.
I am going back to the shop in a few days to inquire about being able to spend some time with each camera, time enough for a walk around the block and shoot a roll of film in each. I will be able to make a much better judgement and get a feel for the cameras.
Unfortunately, unless I sell off a lot of my current Nikon/Nikkor collection, I can only afford to invest in one camera. I do not like chopping and changing once I settle on a camera and system, preferring to take the time and effort to learn to use it effectively.
Thanks for your thoughts and experience. I feel that I may have been too harsh with my judgements, but my opinions were formed after spending about 15 minutes with each camera. Which is basically a first impression summary.
I am going back to the shop in a few days to inquire about being able to spend some time with each camera, time enough for a walk around the block and shoot a roll of film in each. I will be able to make a much better judgement and get a feel for the cameras.
Unfortunately, unless I sell off a lot of my current Nikon/Nikkor collection, I can only afford to invest in one camera. I do not like chopping and changing once I settle on a camera and system, preferring to take the time and effort to learn to use it effectively.
dreamsandart
Well-known
ANY classic rangefinder isn't 'perfect' - but that's half the fun of using them (or at least part of it). 
P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
Kiu will be proud of me. I have placed my WTB in the classifieds for a Nikon RF. I cannot go on any longer with this curse on my head, I have to prove that I am a worthy Nikon user.
Depending on prices, depends on whether I will end up with a S2, S3, or SP. I have been watching eBay and everything on there seems to be in better condition than I am looking for. I see no reason to take a nice Nikon RF and put it through the the rigors of daily use. That is just plain dumb. So I am looking for definite users, cameras that it does not matter if they get dented or scratched. I will probably be like Vince and give them a black paint job anyway.
I just need to get a Nikon RF, my life is not complete anymore.
PS. I told my wife it was Kiu's fault!
Depending on prices, depends on whether I will end up with a S2, S3, or SP. I have been watching eBay and everything on there seems to be in better condition than I am looking for. I see no reason to take a nice Nikon RF and put it through the the rigors of daily use. That is just plain dumb. So I am looking for definite users, cameras that it does not matter if they get dented or scratched. I will probably be like Vince and give them a black paint job anyway.
I just need to get a Nikon RF, my life is not complete anymore.
PS. I told my wife it was Kiu's fault!
back alley
IMAGES
i think i'm keeping mine
will finally get to use it this weekend.
will finally get to use it this weekend.
P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
Come on guys and gals, I want to join the ranks, but no one is willing to help me to do so. No replies to my WTB in the classifieds and no offers from anywhere else. I guess I will start really scouring eBay.
Or should I just shoot the budget and get a new SP kit? Then all the dents and scratches would be mine.
Or should I just shoot the budget and get a new SP kit? Then all the dents and scratches would be mine.
back alley
IMAGES
i thought you were the leica m3 pusher brian!!
atelier7
Well-known
In the (sydney) photographic trader, there's a guy with a couple of nikon rf for sale.
P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
Brian,
I really do not have the funds to buy a new Nikon SP, unless I sell-off a great deal of my existing Nikon/Nikkor gear, which I am hesitant to do. If I can get my hands on a user S2, S3, SP and really fall in love with the Nikon RF, I would be seriously thinking of getting both a new S3 and SP, but without a test drive it is too much of a commitment.
I am vigorously resisting joining the Leica/Canon ranks, I have passed up several M2 and M3 bodies for sub $500 along with several complete late Canon LTM for about the same money. When I think too long about an M2 with a CV 35mm f1.2, my resolve for a Nikon RF starts to really waver. I guess I just getting to the point where I want wrap my hands around a high quality RF and take some pictures.
The one thing that keeps bringing me back to the Nikon RF is the 1:1 VF/RF, which makes a lot of sense to me. I really want to give the Nikon RF a fair go before I get tangled in the Leica web.
I really do not have the funds to buy a new Nikon SP, unless I sell-off a great deal of my existing Nikon/Nikkor gear, which I am hesitant to do. If I can get my hands on a user S2, S3, SP and really fall in love with the Nikon RF, I would be seriously thinking of getting both a new S3 and SP, but without a test drive it is too much of a commitment.
I am vigorously resisting joining the Leica/Canon ranks, I have passed up several M2 and M3 bodies for sub $500 along with several complete late Canon LTM for about the same money. When I think too long about an M2 with a CV 35mm f1.2, my resolve for a Nikon RF starts to really waver. I guess I just getting to the point where I want wrap my hands around a high quality RF and take some pictures.
The one thing that keeps bringing me back to the Nikon RF is the 1:1 VF/RF, which makes a lot of sense to me. I really want to give the Nikon RF a fair go before I get tangled in the Leica web.
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P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
atelier7 said:
I have Photographic Trader No. 124, is that the latest one? If it is, I must have missed that ad. Would care to say which page?
Thanks,
NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku
OK Mr. Miller,P. Lynn Miller said:
Don't ask for things you don't want.
You have a reply to your WTB ad and you will have a PM coming to you soooon.
Kiu
dave lackey
Veteran
P. Lynn Miller said:
Lynn,
Your wish will be granted for a Nikon RF...just go to:
http://www.keh.com/onlinestore/home.aspx
Fantastic place to buy used equipment and the quality ALWAYS exceeds their grading.
Try it you will not be disappointed!
atelier7
Well-known
P. Lynn Miller said:
It's on page 13. I have no connection to the seller. Just happened to see the ad and remembered this thread. Good luck on your hunt for a nikon!
P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
I have gone to the other side...
I have gone to the other side...
Good day all,
I was going to transfer monies this weekend to purchase a Nikon RF kit from a forum member, when I had a customer walk into my shop yesterday with a Bessa R2 hanging around his neck. In discussions, I found out that he had just bought a full Contax G2 Titanium kit and was looking to sell his Bessa kit which included a 35mm f2.5, 50mm f2.5 and 90mm f3.5. The thought of instant gratification was just too much, we did a barter. He got his custom, hand-built set of bicycle touring wheels and I got the Bessa kit. The Bessa had less than 20 rolls of film through it, and when he delivered the goods last evening, everything was in the original box and packing.
So sadly, I have not joined the Nikon RF fellowship, but have conceded to the 'other side'.
I have gone to the other side...
Good day all,
I was going to transfer monies this weekend to purchase a Nikon RF kit from a forum member, when I had a customer walk into my shop yesterday with a Bessa R2 hanging around his neck. In discussions, I found out that he had just bought a full Contax G2 Titanium kit and was looking to sell his Bessa kit which included a 35mm f2.5, 50mm f2.5 and 90mm f3.5. The thought of instant gratification was just too much, we did a barter. He got his custom, hand-built set of bicycle touring wheels and I got the Bessa kit. The Bessa had less than 20 rolls of film through it, and when he delivered the goods last evening, everything was in the original box and packing.
So sadly, I have not joined the Nikon RF fellowship, but have conceded to the 'other side'.