Rikard
Established
I think that is a wise approach when shooting digital.
Joao
Negativistic forever
In 2009 the Portuguese poet Rosa Maria Martelo published a very beautiful poem “Mud” where she adresses the connection of photography and imperfections. She describes a photographer, under a rainy storm, deliberately placing his prints on the mud, not wanting them to be rescued,
I dared to translate the last part of the poem (warning: bad translation, the beauty of the poem is lost, but the point raised by the poet is still there – I hope),
Here it goes:
MUD
….. And, rubbing them against the street stones, he draws more grooves on the images – scratches, black spots.
“The beautiful photographs”, I tell him, desolate, as I try to save the least affected ones. “Stained”, damaged. Why all this? Your clouds were so light, they took so long to photograph with the exact measure of light and shadow».
Wet to the bone, the celestial photographer seems strangely happy with his work. “Now they are right,” he says. “They are still as beautiful as they were, but they also have that part of rubbish and disorder without which nothing can truly belong to this world.”
May you (and the Author) forgive me the bad translation.
Joao
I dared to translate the last part of the poem (warning: bad translation, the beauty of the poem is lost, but the point raised by the poet is still there – I hope),
Here it goes:
MUD
….. And, rubbing them against the street stones, he draws more grooves on the images – scratches, black spots.
“The beautiful photographs”, I tell him, desolate, as I try to save the least affected ones. “Stained”, damaged. Why all this? Your clouds were so light, they took so long to photograph with the exact measure of light and shadow».
Wet to the bone, the celestial photographer seems strangely happy with his work. “Now they are right,” he says. “They are still as beautiful as they were, but they also have that part of rubbish and disorder without which nothing can truly belong to this world.”
May you (and the Author) forgive me the bad translation.
Joao
Dogman
Veteran
Beauty and pretty are not the same.
I believe the poet, Ms Martelo, understands this fully,
Thank you, Joao.
I believe the poet, Ms Martelo, understands this fully,
Thank you, Joao.
Disappointed_Horse
Well-known
You guys' mistakes are better than most of my good shots!
Jonathan R
Well-known
M
i don’t think the music analogy holds in this context, unless you count dissonance, and all the other tricks that save the listener from the ‘obvious’, as imperfections. And in that case, it would certainly be possible to have perfect imperfection.
Brambling
Well-known
With a feeling of deep self-satisfaction))) I started reading this topic, the questions in it have long and deeply affected me.
The very first question at the beginning of the topic has a very, very old answer - the imperfection of the visual picture gives the opportunity to work on the viewer's imagination, to draw the missing part in his own head, and exactly as this head thinks and exactly as this head likes!)Women have long understood this and never expose themselves completely and in a large, detailed, clear and sharp plan))) A woman should remain a mystery and a little understatement)
That is why many photographers love old, imperfect and poorly corrected lenses or deliberately "spoil" a modern "ideal" digital image in Photoshop)))
To my great regret))), everything I wrote is just a repetition of all the thoughts previously expressed in the topic))) - nothing new)))
The only thing is that mistakes, like perfection, should have their own limited limits.
Oh yeah, and the second thing is that, having created an idol for ourselves, we often then struggle for a long time with the personality cult of this idol.)
The very first question at the beginning of the topic has a very, very old answer - the imperfection of the visual picture gives the opportunity to work on the viewer's imagination, to draw the missing part in his own head, and exactly as this head thinks and exactly as this head likes!)Women have long understood this and never expose themselves completely and in a large, detailed, clear and sharp plan))) A woman should remain a mystery and a little understatement)
That is why many photographers love old, imperfect and poorly corrected lenses or deliberately "spoil" a modern "ideal" digital image in Photoshop)))
To my great regret))), everything I wrote is just a repetition of all the thoughts previously expressed in the topic))) - nothing new)))
The only thing is that mistakes, like perfection, should have their own limited limits.
Oh yeah, and the second thing is that, having created an idol for ourselves, we often then struggle for a long time with the personality cult of this idol.)
Retro-Grouch
Veteran
I agree that too many "documentary" photographers beat us over the head with simplistic statements. What I most value (and aspire to) is the sort of documentary that asks meaningful questions, and the most meaningful questions are those that are unanswerable: Who are we? Where do we come from? Where are we going? Our attempts at answers are always provisional, personal, and limited, at best, but those questions are what make us more human. In asking those questions, we can enter the realm of poetry.
Clearly depicted facts and poetry are not antithetical, and, as Winogrand said, "There is nothing as mysterious as a fact clearly described." I would cite, as good examples of the questioning documentarian, Alec Soth or Joel Sternfeld. They offer no answers, but are deeply concerned with the question of what it means to be an American in our strange times, in this strange, puzzling land of contradictions. Important work!
robert blu
quiet photographer
It was a dark, cold and wet night, almost snowing.
I had my small Rollei 35T with Ilford XP2 in my pocket and decided to make a photo, even if I knew the exposure time had been slow...
Many years ago, Christmas time.
I had my small Rollei 35T with Ilford XP2 in my pocket and decided to make a photo, even if I knew the exposure time had been slow...
Many years ago, Christmas time.
peterm1
Veteran
"The very first question at the beginning of the topic has a very, very old answer - the imperfection of the visual picture gives the opportunity to work on the viewer's imagination, to draw the missing part in his own head, and exactly as this head thinks and exactly as this head likes!"
Yes I agree. But I would also make on addendum to your comment as well. I often think that what is so powerful and engaging about this is that viewers' imagination is sometimes supplemented by their own personal experiences. The ambiguity of the imperfect image allows them to interpret the image, if they are so inclined, to experiences in their own life - things they have seen, places they have been, people they have known, people they have loved (or hated). In other words those imperfect images are inherently more capable than clinical ones of making a connection with the viewer. I have also often mused that a really successful photograph does not just accurately (in some sense) depict a place or scene (for example), it makes the viewer feel how they felt when they experienced it first-hand.
Yes I agree. But I would also make on addendum to your comment as well. I often think that what is so powerful and engaging about this is that viewers' imagination is sometimes supplemented by their own personal experiences. The ambiguity of the imperfect image allows them to interpret the image, if they are so inclined, to experiences in their own life - things they have seen, places they have been, people they have known, people they have loved (or hated). In other words those imperfect images are inherently more capable than clinical ones of making a connection with the viewer. I have also often mused that a really successful photograph does not just accurately (in some sense) depict a place or scene (for example), it makes the viewer feel how they felt when they experienced it first-hand.
peterm1
Veteran
I was not suggesting that great pieces of music require imperfection in the dissonance or any other form. I was more making the point that to my way of thinking an imperfect image in the sense that we have been discussing it is rather like great music in that it can speak directly to the senses and the unconscious mind. It shares this characteristic with great music - when it works of course.
peterm1
Veteran
"Thus happens our situation. But you can still have imperfection devoid of meaning; imperfection is just another (contrarian) materialist value in much of this thread--perfect imperfection for the sake of itself, still with no important statement."
I think the "important statement" in imperfect and ambiguous photos is entirely personal. The viewer ascribes his/her own meaning which may be different to someone else's interpretation. This is the nature of ambiguity and it is also the potential beauty of it. To my way of thinking it is much more impactful than most "important statements" ascribed to it by its creator because viewers give it their own meaning. But it is also harder to achieve - taking a clinical picture is easy by comparison.
Jonathan R
Well-known
When it comes to photographic ‘statements’, I’m with Elliott Erwitt, who said that if you could say it in words, there would be no point taking photographs.🙂
Ororaro
Well-known
I haven’t read through the extensive word salads.
All I can say is that Photoshop should be out of the question if one is to create art.
Regarding my photograph, there is a Vagina in there, and that is the main subject.
All I can say is that Photoshop should be out of the question if one is to create art.
Regarding my photograph, there is a Vagina in there, and that is the main subject.
peterm1
Veteran
Dear chap, for us male photographers there is a vagina in every piece of art. If you believe Freud...................................................................................
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raydm6
Yay! Cameras! 🙈🙉🙊┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘ [◉"]
Brambling
Well-known
This is wonderful, this is resonance in the physical sense, this is unanimity.
(despite Google Translate))))
Archiver
Veteran
Some imperfect images, and why I like them despite their imperfections:
GM1 - Stars in our midst by Archiver, on Flickr
Taken with the Panasonic GM1 and Olympus 25mm f1.8. It's not an expensive combination, and the camera completely missed focus. But the sense of the figure being illuminated by their glowing orbs of light is striking and a very happy accident.
ME - Antique Suspension by Archiver, on Flickr
Taken with the Pentax ME and SMC Pentax M 50mm f1.4, with some kind of expired film, probably Fuji XTRA 400. This has everything, lots of film grain, muted colours, and a big flare across the upper right quadrant. But all the imperfections have associations with 'old' things, and the woven blind pull is of an older era, giving the photo a sense of the past.
GRD III - Love in a time of Alien Invasion by Archiver, on Flickr
Taken with the Ricoh GRD III. The III was my most used camera in its time, it went everywhere with me and became my visual diary camera. There was something usually stealthy about it - you could carry it in your hand or take a photo and no one would bat an eyelid. This image wasn't even deliberately seen, I just kind of intuited the scene and shot the room. The combination of the blooming alien energy from the right, in stark contrast with the silhouetted couple kissing, always strikes me as one of those Erwitt coincidences.
GM1 - Stars in our midst by Archiver, on FlickrTaken with the Panasonic GM1 and Olympus 25mm f1.8. It's not an expensive combination, and the camera completely missed focus. But the sense of the figure being illuminated by their glowing orbs of light is striking and a very happy accident.
ME - Antique Suspension by Archiver, on FlickrTaken with the Pentax ME and SMC Pentax M 50mm f1.4, with some kind of expired film, probably Fuji XTRA 400. This has everything, lots of film grain, muted colours, and a big flare across the upper right quadrant. But all the imperfections have associations with 'old' things, and the woven blind pull is of an older era, giving the photo a sense of the past.
GRD III - Love in a time of Alien Invasion by Archiver, on FlickrTaken with the Ricoh GRD III. The III was my most used camera in its time, it went everywhere with me and became my visual diary camera. There was something usually stealthy about it - you could carry it in your hand or take a photo and no one would bat an eyelid. This image wasn't even deliberately seen, I just kind of intuited the scene and shot the room. The combination of the blooming alien energy from the right, in stark contrast with the silhouetted couple kissing, always strikes me as one of those Erwitt coincidences.
1936ContaxII
Member
mdarnton
Well-known
This is a very unsophisticated viewpoint, and you've unintentionally gotten to what bothers me about a lot of photography. If all you can say about a picture is "nice tits" or "cute kids (or cat)". that's not really much of a picture. Viewing any of these arts in that way is the most superficial viewpoint you can take. Classical music has layers of structure, coordination, and sophistication of performance and pacing that most casual listeners don't understand but musicians and serious listeners do. That adds a lot to their understanding and enjoyment, putting them in alignment with what the composer was actually doing beyond making that pretty noise that you enjoy hearing.
I want people to look at my photos and know the person, to really understand something fundamental about the personality in the picture. If all they see is a nice cat they've missed the whole point and why should I bother--I'm wasting my time. That's why I repeated the Solti comment in my post. For a non-musician, without training, this bertter level of understanding can be a difficult road, but it's entirely worth it. Just on a performance level, once you start to understand music a bad performance is simply fatal for the listener. There are popularly-famous musicians whose level of performance and lack of understanding of what they should be doing is so bad that I can't listen to them. When you go to a concert and see as I have that the musicians behind the soloist are scowling at each other, do you really not want to understand why?
And sometimes I can show that to someone in five minutes, where they never noticed it at all, but after they hear that they will be better listeners from that point on.Here's something I like to show friends-- https://livingpianos.com/what-does-rubato-mean/. . If you listen to it and really understand it, it will change the way you listen to classical music, and even more so to jazz, because it's something especially fundamental in jazz (Chet Baker is a master of this). Then your level of appreciation and enjoyment will rise considerably. . . but so will your discrimination. When you understand that A Famous Violinist plays the Brahms Violin Concerto (a composer from the Romantic era, not from the Sousa march school) like a military march, that will be (or should be) the last time you want to hear her.
If you don't understand how very different these two people are, and something about what they are essentially each about, inside, you have missed something very important about my photography:
Butch
by Michael Darnton, on Flickr
Andres, thinking
by Michael Darnton, on Flickr
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Out to Lunch
Ventor
Genève.