Olsen
Well-known
giellaleafapmu said:
But you are not getting the same for 2,800US$ as what a M8 and a WATE can produce. Far from it. My m8 is off to Solms for fixing and I miss it very much. I shoot a lot with my 1Ds II w/16-35 mm 2,8L, these days, - which I bought at the same time as the M8/WATE, back in April last year. The Canon combo is far from as good as the Leica combo, it turns out. The Canon has soft corners even at aparture 8. The WATE is perfect at full aparture. When I get my M8 back I will try to do some systematic comparisons.
And that is how the photo world has always been. You pay five times as much just for an additional aparture stop. Etc.
peterm1
Veteran
I agree with someone who said Leica is bringing a pocket knife to a gun fight. It lacks the financial resources to compete on the same terms with the biggies and needs to carve out its own niche and value proposition. (Again)
In the digital world the thing that keeps the biggies going is time to market. New products have to come out of the research labs and development rooms to churn off the production line at monotonous regularity or they go broke as they have squillions invested and this has to be paid for somehow. In the film camera world Leica's value proposition has been somewhat different. Its like the De Beers "Diamonds are Forever" slogan. Except in their case its "Your Leica is forever" - even when everyone knows its not really as even Leica owners will like to upgrade eventually. To justify paying so much for an (admittedly nice ) camera they have to promote the idea that you can buy a Leica and hang onto it -which to be fair you can. Knowing that the Leitz company (a) cannot fund rapid upgrades and technological developments and (b) do not want to if if they are going to follow their time tested formula, they market on the basis of selling a high quality product to a niche market while staying behind the mass market pack in terms of technology but ahead (above?) it in terms of quality and only producing new versions less frequently.
The big question is will this work in the digital world. It seems to me that getting a full frame sensor is probably central to the strategy as once you have a full frame sensor that is of adequate resolution you should be able to forget about further sensor innovations to some extent and concentrate on other things. (i.e. one of the main things to be driving the market over the past X years since the digital revolution has started is sensor size and resolution. Once a certain point is reached, further developments on this front are likely to be of little interest to the market.) Its a bit like "thru the lens" metering. TTL was the big NEW thing in the late 1960s early 1970s. Once every camera manufacturer (well except Leica ) had it it was no longer a selling point. It was a foundation requirement and people forgot about it for about 15 - 20 years till matrix metering came along which had its moment in the sun and became the next big metering / marketing revolution.
So - will Leica's strategy of infrequent innovation but high quality work in the digital world? I suspect it still appeals to the same demographic and it will if it gets the fundamentals right. How much it thrives is another question as I don't know enough about the economics of camera manufacturing. But in one respect it should. Today much innovation in cameras is in software not hardware and maybe this allows Leica to stick with a base model and offer new features. I am not sure how well that sits with a quality product however. The real selling point has to be (a) their point of difference - a smaller rangefinder camera and (b) quality lenses. Whether a software based innovation route alters the value proposition in the eyes of the consumer remains to be seen. It may be too much like turning Leica into just any other camera.
PS I am talking about camera bodies here. They do seem to innovate quite regularly with lenses as they have a competitive advantage here within a certain market niche and can sell new lenses to even die hard Leica nuts who do not wish to upgrade their camera body.
In the digital world the thing that keeps the biggies going is time to market. New products have to come out of the research labs and development rooms to churn off the production line at monotonous regularity or they go broke as they have squillions invested and this has to be paid for somehow. In the film camera world Leica's value proposition has been somewhat different. Its like the De Beers "Diamonds are Forever" slogan. Except in their case its "Your Leica is forever" - even when everyone knows its not really as even Leica owners will like to upgrade eventually. To justify paying so much for an (admittedly nice ) camera they have to promote the idea that you can buy a Leica and hang onto it -which to be fair you can. Knowing that the Leitz company (a) cannot fund rapid upgrades and technological developments and (b) do not want to if if they are going to follow their time tested formula, they market on the basis of selling a high quality product to a niche market while staying behind the mass market pack in terms of technology but ahead (above?) it in terms of quality and only producing new versions less frequently.
The big question is will this work in the digital world. It seems to me that getting a full frame sensor is probably central to the strategy as once you have a full frame sensor that is of adequate resolution you should be able to forget about further sensor innovations to some extent and concentrate on other things. (i.e. one of the main things to be driving the market over the past X years since the digital revolution has started is sensor size and resolution. Once a certain point is reached, further developments on this front are likely to be of little interest to the market.) Its a bit like "thru the lens" metering. TTL was the big NEW thing in the late 1960s early 1970s. Once every camera manufacturer (well except Leica ) had it it was no longer a selling point. It was a foundation requirement and people forgot about it for about 15 - 20 years till matrix metering came along which had its moment in the sun and became the next big metering / marketing revolution.
So - will Leica's strategy of infrequent innovation but high quality work in the digital world? I suspect it still appeals to the same demographic and it will if it gets the fundamentals right. How much it thrives is another question as I don't know enough about the economics of camera manufacturing. But in one respect it should. Today much innovation in cameras is in software not hardware and maybe this allows Leica to stick with a base model and offer new features. I am not sure how well that sits with a quality product however. The real selling point has to be (a) their point of difference - a smaller rangefinder camera and (b) quality lenses. Whether a software based innovation route alters the value proposition in the eyes of the consumer remains to be seen. It may be too much like turning Leica into just any other camera.
PS I am talking about camera bodies here. They do seem to innovate quite regularly with lenses as they have a competitive advantage here within a certain market niche and can sell new lenses to even die hard Leica nuts who do not wish to upgrade their camera body.
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Tuolumne
Veteran
Leave SM alone. I like his posts.
/T
/T
Tuolumne
Veteran
DougFord said:
Could you make this font a bit smaller? I can't quite fit in on the head of pin yet.
/T
Tuolumne
Veteran
sitemistic said:Ah, I'm on vacation this week. Just enjoying posting a little.
I name you official board conservationist, though.
And this is the best thing you have to do with your time? Sad, really.
/T
Tuolumne
Veteran
sitemistic said:Well, I could be bush hogging the lower 40, but that seems like way too much work for a vacation.
I don't even know what that is?
/T
MikeL
Go Fish
Tuolumne said:
Don't ask, don't tell.
neelin
Established
My Bush Hog 285 has the PaperMill attachmentsitemistic said:
& optional Latte machine add-on http://www.pbase.com/neelin/image/85789959
rainforest's look-out
Tuolumne
Veteran
sitemistic said:Hmmm. I like the Latte machine! My John Deere has a cab on it, and I can think of the perfect spot for it.
Sounds like a good photo op.
/T
George S.
How many is enough?
Let's see... Leica is supposed to invest a few million $ in a camera that will cost twice the price of a Canon or Nikon DSLR system- [ whos camera systems already completely dominate the market ] - and in all likelihood have less features, AND they're going to convince enough people that this is a good idea how?
You're not going to change the balance of power of the market share at this point, especially with a rangefinder, especially at these prices.
You're not going to change the balance of power of the market share at this point, especially with a rangefinder, especially at these prices.
Ben Z
Veteran
Thanks to whoever posted a picture of a bush hog. Years ago a girl I knew in college wrote me a while after we graduated that her father had been killed by a bush hog rolling over on him. Being a suburban/city kid I thought it was some species of wild pig (seriously, not kidding). I got engaged and married not long after, and we lost touch. I'd forgotten about it until I read this post. Now I finally know it was a tractor. Makes a lot more sense.
jarski
Veteran
what the **** ! didnt I just reply to this tread couple times yesterday, or was it day before deja vu anyway
well the Summarit auction I've been checking is closing soon (I mention that in the deja vu world ). sorry OT.
didnt I just reply to this tread couple times yesterday, or was it day before deja vu anyway well the Summarit auction I've been checking is closing soon (I mention that in the deja vu world
). sorry OT.
jarski
Veteran
oops sorry for babling there was "Erwin on Leicas future" in Leica M part...
there was "Erwin on Leicas future" in Leica M part...giellaleafapmu
Well-known
Olsen said:
You are comparing lenses now. Have you tried the same camera with a fix 50mm or 35mm lens?
GLF