Shade
Well-known
Hi guys, currently my main lens is my noctilux and I am very likely to add a wide angle to my lens setup. I have other 50s and 35s that I care not to mention as they will be irrelevant to my ranting.
I have tried 18mm, 24, and 28, and all didnt seem to click on me. The 18 is too wide, the 24 feels awkward and 28 is not wide enough.
What would this 21mm lens serves you will probably ask? Well honestly to take pictures of architectures and sceneries as my wife and I travel around. Mostly of buildings, some indoor stuffs, perhaps hotel rooms, things like that.
Am I a brand minded person? Not really when it comes down to wide angles honestly, its not a lens I would use day in day out, so I wouldnt mind. And to narrow down choices, despite that I think the new 21/3.4 elmar is a wonderful lens, I feel that spending that much on a lens that will only be used less than once in every two months, is not justifiable.
So I have set a few candidates, and I hope you all can chip in and perhaps give me some inputs. And oh please keep in mind that purchasing via eBay is out of context since Indonesia is banned of eBay deliveries somehow. And customs here dont make things any easier either.
Anyway the candidates are the 21mm voigtlander F4 colour skopar, the ZM 21/2.8 biogon, and the Zm 21/4.5 biogon.
I would prefer to have the best performance overall for my needs, and Perhaps when I get paid for shooting wides then Inwill purchase the new 21 elmar.
Thanks beforehand.
I have tried 18mm, 24, and 28, and all didnt seem to click on me. The 18 is too wide, the 24 feels awkward and 28 is not wide enough.
What would this 21mm lens serves you will probably ask? Well honestly to take pictures of architectures and sceneries as my wife and I travel around. Mostly of buildings, some indoor stuffs, perhaps hotel rooms, things like that.
Am I a brand minded person? Not really when it comes down to wide angles honestly, its not a lens I would use day in day out, so I wouldnt mind. And to narrow down choices, despite that I think the new 21/3.4 elmar is a wonderful lens, I feel that spending that much on a lens that will only be used less than once in every two months, is not justifiable.
So I have set a few candidates, and I hope you all can chip in and perhaps give me some inputs. And oh please keep in mind that purchasing via eBay is out of context since Indonesia is banned of eBay deliveries somehow. And customs here dont make things any easier either.
Anyway the candidates are the 21mm voigtlander F4 colour skopar, the ZM 21/2.8 biogon, and the Zm 21/4.5 biogon.
I would prefer to have the best performance overall for my needs, and Perhaps when I get paid for shooting wides then Inwill purchase the new 21 elmar.
Thanks beforehand.
Shade
Well-known
I forgot to add that I am using the M9..
250swb
Well-known
The f/4.5 Biogon will give red edge on the M9, the f/2.8 doesn't, and that is the one I have, an excellent lens, sharp and with good colour and rendering.
I also have the CV 21mm f/4 and that does give me red edge on my camera (with latest Firmware), but some people are apparently not seeing any, it must depend on either sample variation or how critical you are. I do think though that when you have red edge pointed out to you then you carry on seeing it. If it is marginal you may happily live with it. Whichever lens you choose Cornerfix can remove red edge, but it is another process to go through.
Steve
I also have the CV 21mm f/4 and that does give me red edge on my camera (with latest Firmware), but some people are apparently not seeing any, it must depend on either sample variation or how critical you are. I do think though that when you have red edge pointed out to you then you carry on seeing it. If it is marginal you may happily live with it. Whichever lens you choose Cornerfix can remove red edge, but it is another process to go through.
Steve
menos
Veteran
Don't miss out the several 21mm threads in the Tom Abrahamsson corner of RFF a few clicks above the Leica M forum.
Tom and others share a wealth of info on the several 21mm options there with plenty of sample photos to go ;-)
I myself have found to my big surpass, that I love 21mm.
I have sold my 28 Cron some time ago, after finding it too little used on film and the M9 (but there is some regret selling it, I admit).
The 15 Heliar is quite an extreme, that doesn't get much use either.
So I figured, that I am simply not a wide angle guy, but then I tried a Konica Hexanon Dual 21-35 and got completely hooked by 21mm, both on the M9 and cropped to ~ 28mm on the M8.2.
Have a look at the discussions in Tom's place and get some inspiration.
I think, the first question, you should ask yourself is, what kind of imaging character you want from the 21mm.
Do you prefer super sharp across the frame? Low or high contrast? Is light falloff a deal breaker to you? Is sharp corners important? Are you a zero distortion type of guy? Do you need a fast lens above all?
I am not into the super sharp, killing contrasty modern Leica glass anymore. I found a fantastic compromise in the Hexanon 21-35 and even added a worse performer in MTF chart terms (but just "different look" in my personal liking terms) thereafter - a Avenon 21 ƒ2.8.
I might as well try a Super Angulon on film at some point or even might try out a new 21 3.4 Super Elmar, should I get my hands on somebody else's lens.
The fun thing is, that it doesn't stop at the lens, but the finder options are at least as extensive (and as important for shooting such a wide angle) … take your pick.
Tom and others share a wealth of info on the several 21mm options there with plenty of sample photos to go ;-)
I myself have found to my big surpass, that I love 21mm.
I have sold my 28 Cron some time ago, after finding it too little used on film and the M9 (but there is some regret selling it, I admit).
The 15 Heliar is quite an extreme, that doesn't get much use either.
So I figured, that I am simply not a wide angle guy, but then I tried a Konica Hexanon Dual 21-35 and got completely hooked by 21mm, both on the M9 and cropped to ~ 28mm on the M8.2.
Have a look at the discussions in Tom's place and get some inspiration.
I think, the first question, you should ask yourself is, what kind of imaging character you want from the 21mm.
Do you prefer super sharp across the frame? Low or high contrast? Is light falloff a deal breaker to you? Is sharp corners important? Are you a zero distortion type of guy? Do you need a fast lens above all?
I am not into the super sharp, killing contrasty modern Leica glass anymore. I found a fantastic compromise in the Hexanon 21-35 and even added a worse performer in MTF chart terms (but just "different look" in my personal liking terms) thereafter - a Avenon 21 ƒ2.8.
I might as well try a Super Angulon on film at some point or even might try out a new 21 3.4 Super Elmar, should I get my hands on somebody else's lens.
The fun thing is, that it doesn't stop at the lens, but the finder options are at least as extensive (and as important for shooting such a wide angle) … take your pick.
segedi
RFicianado
For your use and for practicality, go for the Voigtlander. I had a ZM 2.8 but didn't really like it. I wasn't impressed with its performance wide open and it's big and heavy. I picked up a Voigtlander recently and really like it. It's small and compact, blocking less of the viewfinder. But its ergonomics are pleasing despite the small size. And for the price, you can't beat it.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
The red edges can be corrected but it's an extra step. I use a Super Angulon on the M9 and it's my favorite lens on any camera. The red edge effect is awful but there's not much that can substitute for that SA. It can be mitigated in-camera by manually coding as a pre-asph 21 Elmarit or by painting on the 6-bit code as an 18mm Super Elmar. Both give decent amounts of correction.
That said, the ZM 21mm f/2.8 is an awesome lens and won't give you a problem with the red edges. For me it was a bit long but that's just a matter of opinion. The images it made were outstanding.
With any of the deep rear element lenses, the amount of red edge is affected by how close the lens is focused and at what aperture it is used at. Worst case scenario is wide open shot at infinity which will optically vignette the most and will also place the rear element closest to the sensor. If used at smaller apertures and/or closer distances, the red edge is diminished.
Phil Forrest
That said, the ZM 21mm f/2.8 is an awesome lens and won't give you a problem with the red edges. For me it was a bit long but that's just a matter of opinion. The images it made were outstanding.
With any of the deep rear element lenses, the amount of red edge is affected by how close the lens is focused and at what aperture it is used at. Worst case scenario is wide open shot at infinity which will optically vignette the most and will also place the rear element closest to the sensor. If used at smaller apertures and/or closer distances, the red edge is diminished.
Phil Forrest
agfa100
Well-known
I also have the CV 21mm f/4, but I only have a Ricoh GXR M module in digital and for the size why go with anything else. A buddy let's me borrow his 21 2.8 when I want to use it, but I am just as happy with the CV 21. No matter which one you go with you will not lose money if you decide to sell it and get something else. So enjoy.
wbill
wbill
Richard G
Veteran
For film I got the 21 4.5 for its compactness and zero distortion, but since it is not ideal on the M9, I'd take the Skopar. I have the 25 and the size is just great. The Zeiss 25 is also pretty big and having a smaller lens really makes a difference to whether you'll take it and use it.
luuca
Well-known
+1 for the voigtlander.
you will need a passage in cornerfix for bright shots (on the snow for example), but nothing terrible if 21mm is not overused.
those shots are passed on cornerfix (M9 + cv 21, without viewfinder):
you will need a passage in cornerfix for bright shots (on the snow for example), but nothing terrible if 21mm is not overused.
those shots are passed on cornerfix (M9 + cv 21, without viewfinder):
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Richard G
Veteran
Wow that's crisp, and fantastic contre jour. No filter I presume. I don't have one my little VC 25.
luuca
Well-known
Shade
Well-known
Thank you guys for the input. I am very well interested in the super angulon, but finding one here is not as easy. So the skopar will probably be best suited for me at the moment. I'm not very critical with the wide angle. I'd like it to be sharp, but just sharp enough, I don't need it to be perfect. I'd also prefer a low contrast lens. I can boost up contrast later if I desire. Fast lens? Nah that's alright, I think I can handhold an F4 or so pretty well.
Shade
Well-known
Oh I also heard that the super angulon doesn't metre correctly on the m9, is it true?
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Yes, you have to set the M9 for -2 2/3 stops compensation. I take care of this by creating a 21mm SA profile in the M9 and just switching to that shooting profile when I switch to that lens. The it also manually codes it and applies most of the vignetting correction.
The metering changes according to focus distance too. To get an accurate exposure, I either use a handheld, use sunny 16 or bring the lens to close focus (which brings the rear element away from shrouding the metering cell enough that an accurate reading is possible) then meter, then focus, compose and shoot. It can be a pain but I think it's well worth it because I love the lens.
Phil Forrest
The metering changes according to focus distance too. To get an accurate exposure, I either use a handheld, use sunny 16 or bring the lens to close focus (which brings the rear element away from shrouding the metering cell enough that an accurate reading is possible) then meter, then focus, compose and shoot. It can be a pain but I think it's well worth it because I love the lens.
Phil Forrest
BTMarcais
Well-known
Why didn't I ever think of that?:bang:
Trying this tomorrow, wonder if it'll work on the M6TTL too...
-Brian
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
I would recommend CV 21/4 until you are certain you want to change it out. I've owned the CV-M model, heavy for its small size and well constructed. Exceptional images when properly used.
Shade
Well-known
Yes looks like the 21/4 skopar is the winner, I will get it today. Thanks for all te help my friends!
maddoc
... likes film again.
The M8 / M8.2 / M9 have a shiny and higher reflective sensor surface than the white meter spot on M6 / M7 / MP so might be different ...
Shade
Well-known
So with the angulon you metre with closest focus first, lock the metre, and then focus? Sounds doable and interesting, now I just need to find an angulon to test on.. Lol..
Btw, I just got my 21 skopar, its one very very small lens for such a wide angle. I can't wait to try it out for my holidays later this weekend!
Btw, I just got my 21 skopar, its one very very small lens for such a wide angle. I can't wait to try it out for my holidays later this weekend!
menos
Veteran
Does this metering technique still require the EV compensation mentioned or can one just meter away?