The Sunny 16 and Me - Not the best marriage.

R

ruben

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Ok, now I am a bit enraged, for something i have been reading nearby, but I will remind myself I was already enraged before, so I will try to keep my balance.

As far as my shooting is concerned the Sunny 16 is of very limited use. So whoever has bought a meter recently out there, congratulations.

Why the Sunny 16 is of limited use to my opinion ? Because there is a single thing it provides you for sure, that under sunlit situations your expo for ISO 100 is dead on f/11 and 1/250, or equivalent. Not much more

Now some friends will start jumping on me with their "shady 5.6" and so forth, but from here on we enter the field of speculation and guessing. And don't get me wrong, I too favour very much guess, speculation, intuition and experience.

But the problem of the urban photographer is not in the sunlit situations but metering the shadows. The shadows intensity vary. And then you either have a lot of expeience, or small experience but you are ready to bet, or.... you use the light meter.

I wait to a bus in a sunlit morning, and no problem. But as soon as i am in the bus there is a totally different situation leaving the Sunny 16 useless. Then you start walking in the city, want to shoot inside a bar or shop and the Sunny 16 is again useless. Then you have a narrow shadowed street and i would like to see there the advocates of the "shady 5.6". Etc.

Experience is not only good thing but a solid one. The Sunny 16 rule is very limited, a fairly modest start.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
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How right you are, Ruben. Limited but useful is what I'd say. I always have trouble deciding if we're looking at light or heavy overcast, and just how deep are those shadows? Two stops? Three? Four, maybe on a very bright day. Interiors can be a little easier to judge in my experience but mixed light and high contrast situations will throw me every time.
I think shady 5.6 is designed for overcast conditions though, not deep shadows on a sunny day.
 
Well, Ruben, certainly Sunny 16 isn't something that one must obey blindly. This is just a mere of experience-proven estimation for certain, well defined situation that may be considered as a reference. With proper judgement skills that can only be developed with experience, one may be able to fetch exposures in different lighting situations based on some kind of reference he used to keep in mind. Sunny 16 is that kind of reference ponit.
I noticed, on the street, in many situation I may come up with quite good exp. estimation without usage of my incident meter or M6 internal one. I just remember the few basic Sunny-16 points (such as broad daylight with clear sky, daylight with light nebulosity, heavier clouds covering skies, open shade (under three, for instance), heavier shadows such as forest or narrow streets shaded by nearby buildings) and their corresponding shifts from 1/ISO @ 16. I foun, shooting B&W I'm able to get as close as half to 1 stop off, which often doesn't matter a lot for B&W film. Moreover, in standard street situations (requiring Sunny-16 +/- up to 2 stops) my judgement can be good enough to be handled by slide film (Sensia 100).

I also tend to try out with my incident meter (or M6 internal) to meter situation I used to encounter ofetn enough and just memorize the settings. For instance, at home I once metered the exposure with in-home artificial lighting at few power settings and remember that at full power teh proper exposure for ISO=400 is approx. 1/60@f/4, whilst decreasing the power to about the half yields 1/30@f/2 (which is as low as I'm willing to handle bearing hand-held shooting).

On your place, I'd consider the situations you tend to shoot most (like.. bus probably ? home ? openly shaded streets ? whatever...) meter and work out the proper exp. settings once and memorize them. then you'll be able to fetch them right away recognizing such kind fo situations or being able to adjust the exposure to somewhat different lighting that you're able to estimate it's intensity shift from your standard memorized scenes.

All in all, I think it is just a matter of experience..
 
You are positing a precision in judging light that is also useless (or at least not practical and not all that important). If using the human eye to evaluate the light (and I know people - my daughter who is a film director for example - who can call the exposure unerringly almost every time) is useless, let me list other things that are useless for measuring specific areas of light:

1) wide coverage light meters (like your beloved Kiev 4)
2) incident meters (which wont give you the shadows but is a great method for measuring exposure for color film).
3) measuring the wrong zone
4) meters that you don't have in your hand when you have the opportunity to take the shot.

Anyhow you get the point. The exposure latitude of film covers a lot of sins and it is better to take the picture than fret over scientific precision.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a compulsive meter reader but if you develop an attitude of confidence your eye can take you far - after all before the war nobody had a light meter and photographs somehow got made.

Michael
 
Sunny 16 is utility system at least for sun ray, I think. Matter would be inhabit in exposure system. In rough description, light meter shows an exposure setting as the object reflects the light of 18%. A 18% gray card as the object would burn in the middle of the characteristic curve (see attachment figure). Though the common neg-films has a latitude of 1000 in proximate. In that case, the 18% gray should be positioned at the red arrow the figure. Somehow the usual system moves the level to the blue arrow position, may be adapted for posi-films. In my opinion, the right settings lack 2 stops in average takes on less shadow detail and contrasty.
 

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Many people do seek precision where it doesn't really exist. A distance of about 100 kilometers is routinely converted to "about 62 miles" adding a magnitude of precision that didn't exist in the original estimate.

Light, cameras and film are the same.

We had a recent discussion on another thread, in which someone who strongly advocated light meters pointed out that sunlight intensity can vary from 32,000 lux to 100,000 lux, depending on location. However, the difference between 32,000 and 100,000 lux is really just 1 and 2/3 stops. If using film with a one-stop tolerance, you could expose everything at 64,000 lux and do just fine. Most negative films exceed one-stop in tolerance.

I consider light meters to be very important tools. I've also found that, by using a handheld meter, you can learn to accurately judge many lighting situations without a meter. Then you pull out the meter when things get tricky.

The mechanical cameras that we love on this forum often have tolerances of +/- one-third stop in their shutter speeds and f/stops (for example, 1,000 might really be 1/800). Lenses often have slightly different real-world f/stops compared to what it indicated on the markings.

If billions of photons are needed to take a photograph, then precision to the mllionth place is not necessary to be accurate, nor even precison to the 10 millionth or hundred-millionth place.
 
Like Vince said, the errors introduced by shutter and transmission loss
can easily accumulate to 1-1.5 stops.

When you have time use a meter. When you have more time, use an
incident meter. Sometimes shooting speed matters, and a shot gets
lost when metering. And even auto exposure can be slow since
the "correct" exposure is one of the off-center grey zones, not the
center of the picture. Many auto cameras (like the OM-2 or CLE)
don't have exposure lock.

I shoot color negatives. As long as the film is up to 1-2 speeds over-exposed
I know I'll be fine. I try to avoid under exposure.

I find it much easier to skip most metering when in-doors.

Outside, the zone system is more important than Sunny 16.

Roland.
 
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Errors and tolerances

Errors and tolerances

Sometime ago a fellow RFF member sent me this chart when i was checking some FSU cameras for shutter speed.
As you can see, cameras are made with high tolerance on the shutter. E.g.: 1/1000 may vary between 1/760 to 1/1320 .....
 

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While I accept that the light can be estimated, that is it can be judged by its affect on the scene, a cognitive process, I can’t believe anyone can measure the actual amount of light by eye, a meter is the only way to be sure.
 
I don't agree at all that the sunny 16 rule is limited or that shadow intensity is that hard to figure out.

When I shot with my IIf and Kiev 4M, I used a sheet that I made from The Ultimate Exposure Computer for making my exposures. I used the Exposure Value Chart and the Exposure Value Relationship Chart to make my wallet chart.

After using the chart for a while I got so I didn't need to reference it anymore and I rarely got a poorly exposed shot. Even with my metered cameras I still use this system to get the correct exposure before the camera is even to my eye.

Chad
 
I can’t believe anyone can measure the actual amount of light by eye, a meter is the only way to be sure.
Click to expand...

Stewart is correct. But an accurate measure of light intensity is just one of many, many variables on the technical side of photography. The next variable, even with a light meter, is -- where do you measure? Neutral gray? Highlights? Shadows? Sidelights? Incident? Spot? Do you measure to saturate colors? To open shadows?

Lot of variables there.
 
Using the Sunny 16 rule is like using an incident meter. You are exposing for the amount of light falling on the subject. There is no zone needed or need to adjust for highlights etc.

Another reason to learn and love the Sunny 16. Also I have shot many a picture inside with this method. No problem. It just takes some looking at the situation and figuring out what the light source is.

Inside a store with bright flourescents and 400 speed film the exposure I use is 1/60 @ f4.

Chad
 
I agree that sunny sixteen is not the ultimate solution but unless you're blessed with the short term memory of a goldfish it's pretty damned useful. Perhaps it does seem folly to some people to wing it when a meter can be had for not a huge amount of money ... why ride a bicycle or walk when you can ride a motorcycle or drive a car?

The journey through thirty six frames without a meter can be very satisying! :)
 
What if your battery dies? What if you are using an old camera with out a meter? Should you stop your shooting, take out the meter, make a reading, transfer your findings to the camera and then shoot after the decisive moment has gone?

Chad
 
ruben when using sunny 16 i usually ise my shadow for checking light. hard edges-f16, bit softer 11, very soft 8, and if you dont have shadow its 5.6
if you are ion the bus situation is the same as in house in daylight because both have windows except in bus you have 1 stop more light because people are closer to windows and there are windows on both sides(in room is around 1/125 f2 and in bus 1/125 f2.8). narrow street is maybe step under overcast day around 4. in night home with only one light bulb its about 1/8 f2 .
if you have some more light in room its 1/30 f2.
i hope this helps.
 
RUBEN--
Meters are great!

Here is where we need your undoubted mechanical skills coupled with intellectual curiosity! Can you develop a short course in Kiev 3 and Kiev 4 meter maintenance? I have been told that selenium cells have a 30 or 40 year life and then they die down. So most Kiev meters are now dying or dead. Since Kiev selenium cells are available (see Oleg), can you teach us to replace a meter cell, so that the Kiev meter works as reliably as the rest of the wonderful camera?

(In you free time, of course)
Gratefully,
--Lindsay
 
ChadHahn said:
What if your battery dies? What if you are using an old camera with out a meter? Should you stop your shooting, take out the meter, make a reading, transfer your findings to the camera and then shoot after the decisive moment has gone?

Chad
Click to expand...

If needs must I guess, but I don’t claim it’s more accurate or somehow more ethical
:)
 
I love Sunny 16. I know it's not perfect, but the more I use it, the more insightful my estimates are. As I mentioned in your last "meter" thread, Ruben, I do need to keep mathematics to a minimum, but I was in Cambridgeshire last week with my Great Wall and no meter, and we - me and the RULE - did just fine together: indoors, outdoors, sun, storm.
It's quite possible, though, that my situations were not as complex - light-wise - as situations can be.
Don't give up!
 
Ruben, you should check how sensitive to light your eyes are; try looking at a plain neutral surface in reasonably good light then close one eye as you will have halved the amount of light entering your eyes, take careful note of how much darker the neutral surface looks, that should be one stop
 
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