The Sunny 16 and Me - Not the best marriage.

VinceC said:
Never doubt. Then there's no need to bracket.

Don't doubt. Know.
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I agree.

As William Blake observed "If the Sun and Moon should ever doubt, they'd immediately go out" - and not to take pictures.

Cheers, Ian
 
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Ruben, if you quit on sunny-16 now, you'll rob yourself from one of the joy of photography.

Now, before everyone else launch a hailstorm on me, let me clarify:

Sunny-16 rule IS NOT FOR EVERYONE. There!

But those of us who enjoys exercising your brain by calculating the proper combination of Aperture and Shutter speed and play a bit of detective work to assess the given light quality, it's fun. Let me repeat, FUN.

So until you've tried it at least with 3-5 rolls of film, you won't get it right away. After that, if you still HATE it, then it's not for you.

Obligatory disclaimer: I'm not a Sunny-16 bigot, I use meters all the time, but when I'm using my OM-1, Kiev, or MF folder, no meter I need!
 
Sparrow said:
While I accept that the light can be estimated, that is it can be judged by its affect on the scene, a cognitive process, I can’t believe anyone can measure the actual amount of light by eye, a meter is the only way to be sure.
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Estimating the intensity is tough because your eye and brain compensate so well. But it is possible to judge the definition and intensity of shadows and compensate accordingly. Even the simple dodge of opening up one stop for sidelight and two for backlight is useful.
 
shadowfox said:
Ruben, if you quit on sunny-16 now, you'll rob yourself from one of the joy of photography.

Now, before everyone else launch a hailstorm on me, let me clarify:

Sunny-16 rule IS NOT FOR EVERYONE. There!

But those of us who enjoys exercising your brain by calculating the proper combination of Aperture and Shutter speed and play a bit of detective work to assess the given light quality, it's fun. Let me repeat, FUN.

So until you've tried it at least with 3-5 rolls of film, you won't get it right away. After that, if you still HATE it, then it's not for you.

Obligatory disclaimer: I'm not a Sunny-16 bigot, I use meters all the time, but when I'm using my OM-1, Kiev, or MF folder, no meter I need!
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Hi Shadowfox,
My question for you is the same with which I posted at the first post here. What can you know for sure beyond the f/11 1/250 for ISO 100 ?

But I think I am not expressing myself with precision. The f/11... abovequoted is extremely accurate, over any other meter measuring. We may agree.

It seems to me that using a meter in the incident way, sticking to same ISO film for the time needed, will lead to experience and guesstimation more effectively than any written chart.

Now, my question to you, after all these stated is what else the Sunny rule has for us. Now I am not in the mood of "the best for me" or the best for you. The issue is what is there for everyone beyond that famous sunlit situation.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
As for the Kiev meters, I am very much aware of the issue of the wide coverage.

Still, I have several crazy ideas for taking advantage of it, that I even dp not dare to publicize as there is a limit to the shame I can bear (Yes, there is a limit) but first of all I need to get that new cell from Oleg.

However, ideas are just that, ideas. Perhaps nothing will come out of it, in practical terms, But let's wait and see. One thing is for sure and it is not much by itself: the Kiev meter is the most compact way to meter light with a meter if you are using a Kiev. Hence the temptation.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
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What do we ever know for sure, Ruben? I load my camera with 100 ASA film. I set my shutter speed to a 125th. Gorgeous skies? f16. Slightly less? f11. Bright shadow? f8. Dull? f5.6. Indoors, and definitely dim? f3.5.
Practise makes perfect. And less than perfect is, as far as I can see, a lesson learned.
 
ruben said:
Hi Shadowfox,
My question for you is the same with which I posted at the first post here. What can you know for sure beyond the f/11 1/250 for ISO 100 ?

(cropped)

Now, my question to you, after all these stated is what else the Sunny rule has for us. Now I am not in the mood of "the best for me" or the best for you. The issue is what is there for everyone beyond that famous sunlit situation.

Cheers,
Ruben
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Hi Ruben,

First of all, call me Will, we've talked frequently enough in this forum to go by first name :)

I'll try to answer your question. This is how I use the S16 rule. I shoot mostly in the same environment as you described, big city, sunny day, lots of tall buildings that casts shadows on the ground.

The first step is to set your *base* aperture. Let's say I loaded an 100 ASA film, I then have several options to set my shutter speed. First, I can go by the S16 rule, which sets it to 125 (closest to 100 on my camera), but in doing that, I'm limiting my aperture to 16, which is the smallest one on my camera. So instead, I set the speed to 250, so I can use wider aperture (f11 becomes my *base* aperture). To continue further, you can set the shutter speed to 500 and f8 is now your base.

Btw this settings works well in the sunny Texas, as Vince always say, get to know your local "light" quality.

I usually do not change the speed during a photo session, from now on I only adjust the aperture as an *offset* from the base aperture that I established above, it's easier to manage for my scatterbrain... brain :eek:

Now when the subject is in the shadows, this is where the "detective" part comes to play. To me, it's fun to analyze the scene in front, are there window reflections (very common in city scapes), are there clouds covering the sun? is the background behind your subject sunlit?

These used to throw me off because I rely on the meter which is fooled by these intricacies of light (unless I'm using my wife's OM-4 with its awesome spot metering).

Now, using the S16 rule, I know that I can use either f11 or f8 or f5.6 to get the subject because I've trained my eyes to "estimate" how much light I need to capture the subject, regardless the surrounding.

So now you ask, when do I use f11 or f8 or f5.6?

When you've done a lot of this estimation, you *know* which aperture will get you the picture you wanted. It depends on how much light *the subject* (not the surrounding) needs. It can't be far off, if you're off a little, the film latitude will cover you just fine. If you're wondering, no, I wouldn't dream to use the S16 slide films, others here may be good enough to do that, not me.

Having done this enough, I can now estimate a reasonable aperture for indoor shots, be it in a restaurant (lot's of window light), or a museum (no windows, lot's of glass reflections).

Another gotcha is when the subject is darker, using the S16 rule it's very easy to remember to compensate, I've gone as far as f3.5 or f2.8 for dark subjects.

So the key is practice.

Here's where the NOT FOR EVERYONE part comes into play, not everyone enjoys the practice.

But one thing is certain, the S16 is an amazingly simple, working *guide* that takes practice to get used to, and it offers *everyone* more enjoyment of the manual style of photography.
 
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ruben said:
Hi Shadowfox,
My question for you is the same with which I posted at the first post here. What can you know for sure beyond the f/11 1/250 for ISO 100 ?

But I think I am not expressing myself with precision. The f/11... abovequoted is extremely accurate, over any other meter measuring. We may agree.

It seems to me that using a meter in the incident way, sticking to same ISO film for the time needed, will lead to experience and guesstimation more effectively than any written chart.

Now, my question to you, after all these stated is what else the Sunny rule has for us. Now I am not in the mood of "the best for me" or the best for you. The issue is what is there for everyone beyond that famous sunlit situation.

Cheers,
Ruben
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Using 400 speed film the following always work. If you don't believe me try them.

1/500 f5.6 shady side of the street.
1/60 f2 illuminated store window
1/60 f4 brightly lit store interior
1/30 f2 home interior under incandescent bulbs
1/500 f11 overcast day.

I don't need the chart I made most of the time. I keep it in my wallet in case. I memorized the few situations that I normally use and automatically set the exposure.

Chad
 
Joe Brugger said:
Estimating the intensity is tough because your eye and brain compensate so well. But it is possible to judge the definition and intensity of shadows and compensate accordingly. Even the simple dodge of opening up one stop for sidelight and two for backlight is useful.
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But the point is your brain will do that with or without your sunglasses; it’s a judgment
 
Ok, my two-pence worth...

Firstly, I learned a long time ago that I'm hopeless at "estimating" light levels, more a problem since I often use tranparency film, which isn't very tolerant.

Sunny 16 works because the sun is very constant BUT only when near local noon, only when not behind cloud (in the UK cloud is somewhat common!) etc etc; so many caveats I gave up trying to memorise them. Then there's the extra stop for overcast, 2 for heavy overcast (or whatever it is). I just gave up trying to remember it all and use a meter! Sunny 16 also is rather useless for indoors.

I'm not criticising those who can make it work, in fact I'm rather jealous of them! The plain fact, however, is that the human eye and brain are refined instruments for working over a vast range of light levels and types and are largely self-compensating for intensity. This makes them rather useless at judging exposure without a great deal of learning and experience.

A meter, on the other hand, is always right IF used properly. Yes, I know that interpretation also takes some experience but (in my case) it's far less. If I used the meter settings all of the time I know I'd have far fewer duds than "estimation". In reality I rarely get a bad exposure.
 
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