boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
If the camera is determined to have been a Pentax, whose hands was it in? Both photographers were shooting with Pentax cameras. Were they both at the same time that day? Getting the negative matched to a camera mask may get us closer. But I wonder if it will be the solution.
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Michael Markey
Veteran
Reading this thread today had me thinking just what kind of pressures would make a photo agency do what is suggested. I can`t think that the camera manufacturer would (back in those days) have a commercial interest in in doing so as they might be tempted to these days .Was the market that commercial back then ?
ddutchison2
Well-known
As a voracious reader of all the photography magazines of the day, I'd say nothing much has changed in that regard (though I also doubt anyone would want to use such a damning image of the cruelty their countries foreign policy decisions for product advertising). In fact, if you go back to general photography books from the 30s-50s, they often had many pages of ads for products at the back. It's always been a spendy kind of hobby.
kiemchacsu
Well-known
today a shock announcement from WPP
www.worldpressphoto.org
Navigating Doubt and Authorship: Why World Press Photo Suspended Authorship Attribution of a Historic Image
Authorship attribution suspended for ‘The Terror of War’ photograph | World Press Photo
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
today a shock announcement from WPP
Navigating Doubt and Authorship: Why World Press Photo Suspended Authorship Attribution of a Historic Image
Authorship attribution suspended for ‘The Terror of War’ photograph | World Press Photo
It seems now that a decision on this which will please all parties is very difficult. But I wonder if no decision is better. It is better than a wrong decision, yes. This is an example of why it is important to have well-researched historical theses that have been subject to peer review. I have not gone over the evidence and if I had I doubt I would understand it. It is unfortunate that this has happened. I wonder if, now, the story is over.
The immediate result seems, to me, that we now have two aggrieved parties instead of one and no solution.
olakiril
Well-known
today a shock announcement from WPP
Navigating Doubt and Authorship: Why World Press Photo Suspended Authorship Attribution of a Historic Image
Authorship attribution suspended for ‘The Terror of War’ photograph | World Press Photo
Plus the original editor admitting to changing authorship after been directed to do so by Faas.
Good for them.
Dogman
Veteran
More drama. More questions, more failures, more opinions, more conflicting findings. Just like the war itself.
...............................
...............................
The details of the months-long investigation will be presented on Saturday, 17 May, at ‘The Stories That Matter’ event in Amsterdam. This will be followed by a Q&A with our executive director.
worldpressphoto.org/calendar/2025/the-stories-that-matter
worldpressphoto.org/calendar/2025/the-stories-that-matter
raydm6
Yay! Cameras! 🙈🙉🙊┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘ [◉"]
At least some good came out of this iconic photo and Kim Phuc Phan Thi is doing well. Her story, recovery, and work are inspirational.
kimfoundation.com
readelysian.com
About - The KIM Foundation International
The KIM Foundation International was founded by Kim Phuc Phan Thi, the Napalm Girl, to provide hope to innocent children in need.
kimfoundation.com
Inspiring Women – Phan Thi Kim Phuc - ELYSIAN Magazine
PHAN THI KIM PHUC had only recently turned 9 years old when a soldier told her to run. It was June 8, 1972, in the latter years of the Vietnam…
readelysian.com
Out to Lunch
Ventor
What I posted last Saturday. Now that WPP has suspended Ut's attribution, one would expect him to follow through on his intention to file a defamation suit.
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
In other words, "let's jump on this tabloid-style controversy to get bums on seats".
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Both the Guardian and the New York Times carried articles today on this controversy. They are out there to be read by anyone interested. It will add more information but still no definite conclusion. The AP seems, to me, to have done the more serious study and come away saying that they cannot prove or disprove who took the shot beyond any doubt. But that the preponderance of evidence supports Ut. It can be argued that AP is a vested interest. The Stiringer came up with a less supportive position of Mr. Ut and more supportive for their view and they, of course, are a vested interest.
So there is no conclusion yet. But what remains is the immense importance of this photo and the effect it had on support for the war in the US. That and the killing of the captured Viet Cong by the ARVN general in Saigon during the Tet offensive were so influential. The Buddhist monk immolations were influential but in my estimation not to the extent as those two I just named.
And while both sides in this awful, awful war were guilty of some horrible crimes these photos may have helped shorten our participation. That is what is important and that remains unchanged. As the slogan of the Left said at the time, "War is harmful to children and other small people."
And now here we have many Westerners who travel and have traveled to Viet Nam on business and pleasure who say nice things about the country and its people. And we have Trung who lives in Hanoi and supplies us with photo info of what Hanoi was and is. It kinda gives me hope.
So there is no conclusion yet. But what remains is the immense importance of this photo and the effect it had on support for the war in the US. That and the killing of the captured Viet Cong by the ARVN general in Saigon during the Tet offensive were so influential. The Buddhist monk immolations were influential but in my estimation not to the extent as those two I just named.
And while both sides in this awful, awful war were guilty of some horrible crimes these photos may have helped shorten our participation. That is what is important and that remains unchanged. As the slogan of the Left said at the time, "War is harmful to children and other small people."
And now here we have many Westerners who travel and have traveled to Viet Nam on business and pleasure who say nice things about the country and its people. And we have Trung who lives in Hanoi and supplies us with photo info of what Hanoi was and is. It kinda gives me hope.
Disappointed_Horse
Well-known
I dare say it is no coincidence that we are NOT seeing photojournalism like this coming out of today's current and equally horrible war zones.
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
There's a lot of solid evidence that journalists in Palestine are being actively targeted by the IDF for precisely this reason: Israel-Gaza war: list of journalists killed in the line of duty in Palestine, Israel and Lebanon gets longer
Reading those stories from Reporters Sans Frontiers is horrifying. The Wikipedia article on the subject goes into even more detail: Killing of journalists in the Gaza war - Wikipedia
Also, a reminder: this is a war crime.
Bringing it back to Vietnam, I remember reading that Vietnam permanently changed the relationship between the US Army and photojournalists; photographers after that had to be "embedded" with the military and were more tightly controlled.
wlewisiii
Just another hotel clerk
I and my ex traveled to HCM/Saigon in March and May of 2002 to adopt our son. He was born in Phan Thiết, Bình Thuận province in January of that year. It was a very interesting nation for an American, so soon after 9/11, to visit, especially since I had been in the US Army from 1982 - 1998. Many interesting stories. I wish I'd had a better camera than the Canon Rebel XS and it's horrific kit lens but I didn't; that realization did start me on my path to get serious.
I met veterans from multiple sides of The American War and even though my time in service was later was accepted as a comrade. I found the people good and the government perhaps not without it's flaws but certainly honest enough - none of the rampant corruption of the PRC for example.
It would not break my heart to have my feet washed in the south china sea again and eat one day in the sun squid and remember those men I spoke with two decades ago.
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Part of the good news is that you have a grown son, soon out of college. That's great. By age seven it is all over, by fifteen they stop listening and if they reach twenty-one, are still speaking to you and not in jail, you did a great job. ;o)
As for Viet Nam I hear no complaints. It looks lovely, the people seem nice and the food is great. Summers are rough, but the fall and spring are great. We have your word for it, others, too. And photos of an interesting place. It all looks good to me.
OmegaB600
Member
Its to nifty for this. I have seen articles proving it was Ut who took the camera.
I think most of the "science" is being based upon the extant negative frames, and the dimensions of the image on the negative itself, and then comparing to GENERALIZED camera making companies blue print specifications for image size on a negative..
I think most of the "science" is being based upon the extant negative frames, and the dimensions of the image on the negative itself, and then comparing to GENERALIZED camera making companies blue print specifications for image size on a negative..
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
On the subject there will be a lot of articles, some heated, some scholarly, some silly. There will be more heat than light. That's just how it is. The good news is that it is being investigated and discussed. And it is great that it has washed up on he shores of RFF. There are some pretty savvy folks here hiding behind cameras who have some excellent insights to offer. And I hope that we keep getting them posted.
Archiver
Veteran
I love the fact that we at RFF are just outside ground zero on this issue, comparing notes and discussing the finer points of war photojournalism, ethics in photography, forensic negative analysis and the Vietnam war in general. We're watching the issues unfold in real time.
Michael Markey
Veteran
This on Facebook today :
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This week’s announcement by World Press Photo (WPP-Holland) that they are “suspending” Nick Ut’s credit for the “Napalm Girl” photograph, the now famous picture of young Vietnamese children running for safety, presents what feels like a whole new level of irrelevancy to what was once a powerful, honest guardian and arbiter of photojournalism. As discussions grew over the winter about a new documentary film which claimed to reveal who 'really' took that now famous photograph, there has been a terrible and unfortunate swirl of confidence in journalism itself. I would point out that while I declined to be interviewed in a film whose purpose was quite clear at the outset, neither have I been offered a chance to see and view the final version of the film on my own. The filmmakers, having carefully reached out to groups like World Press Photo during the early marketing phase of the film (which was eventually shown at the Sundance festival in Park City) doubts and discussions began to arise in some quarters about who took the picture.
Four months ago I was the recipient of a note from Joumana El Khoury, the current Executive Director of World Press Photo (whose Press Photo of the Year prize I was awarded in 1980, and on whose Jury I have served several times, twice as Jury Chair) , advising me on January 15 that they felt a need to find out more information about the "true authorship of the photograph," and that they needed to hear from me by January 20, ‘in order to take your statement into account of our decision.’
My response, was to question what kind of journalistic principles would lead them to feel that a decision about a situation that was 53 years on, had to be finalized in five days. I was aware of their supposed determination to create their own research and come up with an answer. Yet since January I have not heard a single word from WPP, and I have come to understand that they have not reached out to Nick Ut or his representatives either in that time. We two, Nick and I, are among the very few still living who were in the Press Corps that day in Trang Bang and while in the heat of the moment, no one spends conscious time monitoring what others do around them in a breaking news situation (no, we are, as photographers, trying to make pictures which tell that day’s story…) my memory is very clear - as it remains on many indelible aspects of my time in Vietnam, on that day of many crucial things. I have previously written on my experience that day, and have not wavered from my story in all these years..
When it became obvious that a stream of civilians were running away from the village center, towards the road on which the press corps was haphazardly assembled, Nick Ut, and Newsweek stringer Alex Shimkin, who were standing next to me, began racing down the road towards the oncoming children. In those next few moments as the children neared, Nick Ut made that picture. In my recollection, no one else was even remotely in a place to take that picture.
Later at the Associated Press office, I had my film processed, edited and printed by the AP darkroom crew, and sent pictures to the New York Times. In those minutes of waiting for the prints to be done, the AP darkroom chief emerged with the first ever 5x7’’ print of what would become known as “the horror of war.” There was never a moment when I doubted that Nick had made that picture, and while in one of my conversations with film producer Gary Knight, he said he had proof that Nick couldn’t have taken the picture, I responded by saying, based on my recall of how Nick had run down the road, ahead of everyone else, “that no one BUT Nick could have taken that picture.”
I still haven’t seen the film “The Stringer,” which strikes me as very uncollegial since Gary called me several years ago to talk about Trang Bang, and asked to see my pictures of that very day, early on in his narrative - before it became clear to me that he was attempting to show that another photographer had made the picture. I would like to see their analysis, but some things are very clear to me, and one of those is that in a desire to become part of the cabal which is embracing this film, World Press Photo is stumbling over its own journalistic shoes as it struggles to remain relevant and of interest in the wake of their own egregious ethical and intellectual lapses.
David Burnett/ New York. May 17, 202
Dave Burnett
3h ·Facebook - log in or sign up
This week’s announcement by World Press Photo (WPP-Holland) that they are “suspending” Nick Ut’s credit for the “Napalm Girl” photograph, the now famous picture of young Vietnamese children running for safety, presents what feels like a whole new level of irrelevancy to what was once a powerful, honest guardian and arbiter of photojournalism. As discussions grew over the winter about a new documentary film which claimed to reveal who 'really' took that now famous photograph, there has been a terrible and unfortunate swirl of confidence in journalism itself. I would point out that while I declined to be interviewed in a film whose purpose was quite clear at the outset, neither have I been offered a chance to see and view the final version of the film on my own. The filmmakers, having carefully reached out to groups like World Press Photo during the early marketing phase of the film (which was eventually shown at the Sundance festival in Park City) doubts and discussions began to arise in some quarters about who took the picture.
Four months ago I was the recipient of a note from Joumana El Khoury, the current Executive Director of World Press Photo (whose Press Photo of the Year prize I was awarded in 1980, and on whose Jury I have served several times, twice as Jury Chair) , advising me on January 15 that they felt a need to find out more information about the "true authorship of the photograph," and that they needed to hear from me by January 20, ‘in order to take your statement into account of our decision.’
My response, was to question what kind of journalistic principles would lead them to feel that a decision about a situation that was 53 years on, had to be finalized in five days. I was aware of their supposed determination to create their own research and come up with an answer. Yet since January I have not heard a single word from WPP, and I have come to understand that they have not reached out to Nick Ut or his representatives either in that time. We two, Nick and I, are among the very few still living who were in the Press Corps that day in Trang Bang and while in the heat of the moment, no one spends conscious time monitoring what others do around them in a breaking news situation (no, we are, as photographers, trying to make pictures which tell that day’s story…) my memory is very clear - as it remains on many indelible aspects of my time in Vietnam, on that day of many crucial things. I have previously written on my experience that day, and have not wavered from my story in all these years..
When it became obvious that a stream of civilians were running away from the village center, towards the road on which the press corps was haphazardly assembled, Nick Ut, and Newsweek stringer Alex Shimkin, who were standing next to me, began racing down the road towards the oncoming children. In those next few moments as the children neared, Nick Ut made that picture. In my recollection, no one else was even remotely in a place to take that picture.
Later at the Associated Press office, I had my film processed, edited and printed by the AP darkroom crew, and sent pictures to the New York Times. In those minutes of waiting for the prints to be done, the AP darkroom chief emerged with the first ever 5x7’’ print of what would become known as “the horror of war.” There was never a moment when I doubted that Nick had made that picture, and while in one of my conversations with film producer Gary Knight, he said he had proof that Nick couldn’t have taken the picture, I responded by saying, based on my recall of how Nick had run down the road, ahead of everyone else, “that no one BUT Nick could have taken that picture.”
I still haven’t seen the film “The Stringer,” which strikes me as very uncollegial since Gary called me several years ago to talk about Trang Bang, and asked to see my pictures of that very day, early on in his narrative - before it became clear to me that he was attempting to show that another photographer had made the picture. I would like to see their analysis, but some things are very clear to me, and one of those is that in a desire to become part of the cabal which is embracing this film, World Press Photo is stumbling over its own journalistic shoes as it struggles to remain relevant and of interest in the wake of their own egregious ethical and intellectual lapses.
David Burnett/ New York. May 17, 202