Bill Pierce
Well-known
As many of you know, my first two M8’s, some of the first delivered, went belly up and were replaced by Leitz by an M8 that has seen a lot of work and performed flawlessly. Recently I took a month off and thought it would be a good time to have the M8 upgraded with the quieter, lower vibration shutter and bright line frames set for two meters.
The new shutter is much quieter; the new frame lines, excellent for my use of the camera. Unfortunately, when it was returned the camera worked in auto exposure mode but not in manual. The right hand of the repair shop gives and the left hand takes away. Essentially, set one shutter speed, get another... Also on manual, if the top speed on the shutter dial (1/4000) was set, the screen information would indicate 1/8000 of a second, a speed not longer available with the new shutter. On manual, if you set the lowest speed (8 seconds) and the shutter would open for about 4.
Losing the camera for a second month just to repair Leitz’s own mistakes makes the camera useless to me professionally. I’ve pretty much given up on the camera as a professional tool, in spite of the fact that it is an exceptional camera when working. This is as much a problem of service as it is a camera problem.
I emailed the Leitz service center a rather whiney letter hoping they would offer a quick, local service since they had created the need for another visit to the repair shop and it was probably a very simple repair. I got the following message -
Thank You for Your e-mail.
I am out of the office until 17th of October 2009.
That was on last Friday, the 9th.
I've always been a fan of Leica, even sharing the stage with Walter Huen in the “old days” when the Leica School was presented at photojournalism schools. As a journalist I won the Leica Medal of Excellence. In that guise I've taken film Leicas into some very ugly situations and they have survived and performed well.
Giving up on Leica after they have entered the digital world that is now essential for a journalist is neither easy nor pleasant. Truth is, it’s very sad. But since I have given up and no longer will be using rangefinders, this thread will be my last posting on the Rangefinder Forum. To say that it’s been fun is an understatement. This forum has some rather wise and gracious folk who have been a pleasure to communicate with and learn from. As for the rest of us, enthusiasm and consideration for others has been remarkable on this forum - and that also has made it a pleasure.
The new shutter is much quieter; the new frame lines, excellent for my use of the camera. Unfortunately, when it was returned the camera worked in auto exposure mode but not in manual. The right hand of the repair shop gives and the left hand takes away. Essentially, set one shutter speed, get another... Also on manual, if the top speed on the shutter dial (1/4000) was set, the screen information would indicate 1/8000 of a second, a speed not longer available with the new shutter. On manual, if you set the lowest speed (8 seconds) and the shutter would open for about 4.
Losing the camera for a second month just to repair Leitz’s own mistakes makes the camera useless to me professionally. I’ve pretty much given up on the camera as a professional tool, in spite of the fact that it is an exceptional camera when working. This is as much a problem of service as it is a camera problem.
I emailed the Leitz service center a rather whiney letter hoping they would offer a quick, local service since they had created the need for another visit to the repair shop and it was probably a very simple repair. I got the following message -
Thank You for Your e-mail.
I am out of the office until 17th of October 2009.
That was on last Friday, the 9th.
I've always been a fan of Leica, even sharing the stage with Walter Huen in the “old days” when the Leica School was presented at photojournalism schools. As a journalist I won the Leica Medal of Excellence. In that guise I've taken film Leicas into some very ugly situations and they have survived and performed well.
Giving up on Leica after they have entered the digital world that is now essential for a journalist is neither easy nor pleasant. Truth is, it’s very sad. But since I have given up and no longer will be using rangefinders, this thread will be my last posting on the Rangefinder Forum. To say that it’s been fun is an understatement. This forum has some rather wise and gracious folk who have been a pleasure to communicate with and learn from. As for the rest of us, enthusiasm and consideration for others has been remarkable on this forum - and that also has made it a pleasure.
emraphoto
Veteran
I went through this exact same scenario with leicausa bill. In the end I gave up on leica digital cameras as working tools despite my m8's performing flawlessly for a year and a half. It wasn't the m8 that spoiled digital m for me, it was Leica's bollocks service.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Holy cr@p, Bill, we don't want to lose you. Please stay around for the Rodinal threads, at the very least! 
. Please ...
. Please ...
We have an SLR Forum, a Point and Shoot Forum, and a Bill Pierce Forum!
You can post anything you want!
You can post anything you want!
Al Kaplan
Veteran
Enjoy your newfound freedom, Bill.
Merkin
For the Weekend
If you do choose to depart, it is understandable. I am sure that the overwhelming majority of posters here wish you wouldn't, however. I went from RF to DSLR, and they havent kicked me off yet so you certainly don't have to depart just because you aren't shooting a Leica anymore. Your experience and advice is certainly valued here, and if you do stick with your choice to leave, you will certainly be missed.
so you certainly don't have to depart just because you aren't shooting a Leica anymore. Your experience and advice is certainly valued here, and if you do stick with your choice to leave, you will certainly be missed.
FrankS
Registered User
Bill, I like you more now that you aren't shooting an M8.
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Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Merkin: You're walkin' a thin line ...
gb hill
Veteran
If you leave you will indeed be missed. Leica should give you an M9.
newsgrunt
Well-known
I'm hoping that this will not be your last post Bill and that you'll hang around and keep it real. It seems loyalty as a two way street is becoming less important. Leica has benefited from your use of their rangefinders so a little consideration is not too much to ask I'd think.
If I were handling professional service, I'd keep a list of names on my Blackberry. These would be the photographers who torture test cameras on the job and thus by extension give credibility to the gear. They would, and it may look unfair, get preferential service. Canon works this way as does Nikon.
Leica should have treated you better Bill. No, they should treat anyone who buys their gear, much better. Service should not be left to languish while someone is out of the office, that's pretty weak and a higher up should rattle some chains. They should have bent over backwards to correct their mistake.
Hopefully they'll come calling and make things square so you can keep a presence on RFF.
If I were handling professional service, I'd keep a list of names on my Blackberry. These would be the photographers who torture test cameras on the job and thus by extension give credibility to the gear. They would, and it may look unfair, get preferential service. Canon works this way as does Nikon.
Leica should have treated you better Bill. No, they should treat anyone who buys their gear, much better. Service should not be left to languish while someone is out of the office, that's pretty weak and a higher up should rattle some chains. They should have bent over backwards to correct their mistake.
Hopefully they'll come calling and make things square so you can keep a presence on RFF.
back alley
IMAGES
it's not like you have forgotten all that leica stuff all of a sudden...
W
wlewisiii
Guest
I only shoot for myself but I enjoy hearing, thinking &, most importantly, viewing the work of those who do shoot professionally for news or art. I do use a RF pretty much exclusivly, but I can get away with it because I only have to keep me, my wife & my son's grandparents happy Thank you for what you've posted here.
Please stick around.
Thanks,
William
Thank you for what you've posted here. Please stick around.
Thanks,
William
kshapero
South Florida Man
Crap Bill, my M7 is warping away at Leica Repair and now you bolt. How am I to arrange this in my head?
BillBingham2
Registered User
Bill,
Several thoughts come to mind, the first was OMG, perhaps the best coffee guy out there is leaving, NFW, we will not let it happen. After comfort food eating a bread/pasta bowl from Dominos (ordered before I read the news), I've calmed down a bit.
NPS used to be Nikon's answer to such silliness, not sure about Canon, but I'm sure they had theirs, WHATSUP Leica. Somewhere some bean counter dropped the ball. Just pure stupid. Keep in mind though that if Leica was good at repair we would not have the likes of Don (DAG) or Sherry (Ms. Golden Touch) and others. Sadly the M8/9 do not have the length of time in the field yet to develop/create/hatch such magical people. I hope that over the next five years or so that it will happen. There is no doubt they should have offered you a loaner on the return to fix their problem, even if you were not Bill P, it's just good business. He11 BMW does that on the third time (I have a friend who is a national service tech who keeps cars from becoming lemons).
Second, while yes this is a problem with service, it is really a problem with the QC (Quality Control) or lack there of when cameras are shipped home. While the shop should not have cause the problem, QC should have caught it. A simple check list of all major functions would have shown this problem in minutes. It's not like they needed to run a roll of film though it. Leica is just DUMB on this one. Give me an M8, M9 and an X1 for a few weeks and I will build them a check list to be run before shipping them out. While I'd love to keep either of the Ms I'd be happy to call it even with an X1.
If you are using a camera professionally I would strongly recommend that you have a full backup sitting ready. Swap out bodies every two weeks so that each gets used evenly. You did this with film (King of the Ms and Uncollectibles) perhaps without knowing it. Why not with Digital?
I do not know about Leica but I can tell you that great people on the phone or at the end of an email address are few and far between these days. Down Sizing has cut them out and the good ones that are there are pushed so hard to do their job and that of the guy/gal who was next to them but laid off that they forget. Remember it was not that long ago that Leica was almost at the end of their rope.
I'm hoping ZI or Nikon will come out with an alternative in FF. I think now there is a growing market for two digital rangefinder manufacturers.
There are many of us here on RFF that do not use rangefinders for our profession. Some of us use computers, others shoot with DSLRs, others believe it or not are Doctors. RFF is made up of people who want to learn. People who want to be challenged. People who want to share ideas and experience. I have not shot professionally with my S3-2000, yet. It might start in a couple of weeks maybe (my current contract is up this Friday with no replacement gig in sight). I no longer have any Ms. That doesn't stop me from sharing my experience with people who are starting out looking for their second lens for their M or such. You have forgotten more about Leica stuff that I will ever know. Please do not give up on RFF just because Solms should be slapped across the face a few times.
You bring so much good, so much challenging, such great ideas to all of the readers at RFF, loosing your contribution would be a shame. I also want to point out that for every respondent to your comments I bet there are at least ten others who read it. You, Tom, and the others help out hundreds of people around the world.
Another point, perhaps a bit harder to see in your current state. Leica has made a number of your favorite tools to create the magic that you do. While they do not need as much of your help with products that they might have say three years ago (I believe they are now on track) they need your help now with service. Something they have forgotten and that for the working Pro is a critical part of life. Reach out to the numb-nuts and help them. Don't give up, see how they can fix it. I believe that the mark of a truly great company is not that they do not make mistakes, but rather in how well they fix them. I always tell everyone who works for me I expect mistakes. If you never make them then you are not working hard enough. We will debrief after every major mistake (major defined as $$, Risk, Customer Impact) and if you make the same mistake twice it will be more than a debriefing, there will be consequences. On the third time through of the same mistake you will never be given another chance. I understand you think this is the third time, but I think this is a different mistake, though with the same impact, you are SOL.
Thoughts?
B2 (;->
Several thoughts come to mind, the first was OMG, perhaps the best coffee guy out there is leaving, NFW, we will not let it happen. After comfort food eating a bread/pasta bowl from Dominos (ordered before I read the news), I've calmed down a bit.
NPS used to be Nikon's answer to such silliness, not sure about Canon, but I'm sure they had theirs, WHATSUP Leica. Somewhere some bean counter dropped the ball. Just pure stupid. Keep in mind though that if Leica was good at repair we would not have the likes of Don (DAG) or Sherry (Ms. Golden Touch) and others. Sadly the M8/9 do not have the length of time in the field yet to develop/create/hatch such magical people. I hope that over the next five years or so that it will happen. There is no doubt they should have offered you a loaner on the return to fix their problem, even if you were not Bill P, it's just good business. He11 BMW does that on the third time (I have a friend who is a national service tech who keeps cars from becoming lemons).
Second, while yes this is a problem with service, it is really a problem with the QC (Quality Control) or lack there of when cameras are shipped home. While the shop should not have cause the problem, QC should have caught it. A simple check list of all major functions would have shown this problem in minutes. It's not like they needed to run a roll of film though it. Leica is just DUMB on this one. Give me an M8, M9 and an X1 for a few weeks and I will build them a check list to be run before shipping them out. While I'd love to keep either of the Ms I'd be happy to call it even with an X1.
If you are using a camera professionally I would strongly recommend that you have a full backup sitting ready. Swap out bodies every two weeks so that each gets used evenly. You did this with film (King of the Ms and Uncollectibles) perhaps without knowing it. Why not with Digital?
I do not know about Leica but I can tell you that great people on the phone or at the end of an email address are few and far between these days. Down Sizing has cut them out and the good ones that are there are pushed so hard to do their job and that of the guy/gal who was next to them but laid off that they forget. Remember it was not that long ago that Leica was almost at the end of their rope.
I'm hoping ZI or Nikon will come out with an alternative in FF. I think now there is a growing market for two digital rangefinder manufacturers.
There are many of us here on RFF that do not use rangefinders for our profession. Some of us use computers, others shoot with DSLRs, others believe it or not are Doctors. RFF is made up of people who want to learn. People who want to be challenged. People who want to share ideas and experience. I have not shot professionally with my S3-2000, yet. It might start in a couple of weeks maybe (my current contract is up this Friday with no replacement gig in sight). I no longer have any Ms. That doesn't stop me from sharing my experience with people who are starting out looking for their second lens for their M or such. You have forgotten more about Leica stuff that I will ever know. Please do not give up on RFF just because Solms should be slapped across the face a few times.
You bring so much good, so much challenging, such great ideas to all of the readers at RFF, loosing your contribution would be a shame. I also want to point out that for every respondent to your comments I bet there are at least ten others who read it. You, Tom, and the others help out hundreds of people around the world.
Another point, perhaps a bit harder to see in your current state. Leica has made a number of your favorite tools to create the magic that you do. While they do not need as much of your help with products that they might have say three years ago (I believe they are now on track) they need your help now with service. Something they have forgotten and that for the working Pro is a critical part of life. Reach out to the numb-nuts and help them. Don't give up, see how they can fix it. I believe that the mark of a truly great company is not that they do not make mistakes, but rather in how well they fix them. I always tell everyone who works for me I expect mistakes. If you never make them then you are not working hard enough. We will debrief after every major mistake (major defined as $$, Risk, Customer Impact) and if you make the same mistake twice it will be more than a debriefing, there will be consequences. On the third time through of the same mistake you will never be given another chance. I understand you think this is the third time, but I think this is a different mistake, though with the same impact, you are SOL.
Thoughts?
B2 (;->
dseelig
David
Bill
Bill
Sorry you are going quie frankly you were the main reason Icome to rangefinder forum.
Bill
Sorry you are going quie frankly you were the main reason Icome to rangefinder forum.
semordnilap
Well-known
Bill,
Though I don't comment much, I have really appreciated all of the opinions, knowledge, and ideas you have shared here... it is always great to read what you have to say. I, as well as many others, will miss you if you go, but do hope you will stay. What happened with Leica service is a crying shame, really... nothing more need be said on that.
Anyway, whatever happens, thanks for everything!!!
Though I don't comment much, I have really appreciated all of the opinions, knowledge, and ideas you have shared here... it is always great to read what you have to say. I, as well as many others, will miss you if you go, but do hope you will stay. What happened with Leica service is a crying shame, really... nothing more need be said on that.
Anyway, whatever happens, thanks for everything!!!
Shac
Well-known
Bill - It would be greatly appreciated by many of us if you would change your mind.
Thanks anyway
Thanks anyway
amateriat
We're all light!
Damn it , Bill, my head nearly hit the transom at this news. Leave if you must, and I'll try to understand, but of course would prefer you didn't.
Obviously, Leica dropped the ball big-time with you. They really can't afford slip-ups like this right now. I can only hope this bit of public airing lights a fire under their collective hindquarters and have them take action. At the very least, they owe you one hell of an apology.
Best wishes.
- Barrett
Obviously, Leica dropped the ball big-time with you. They really can't afford slip-ups like this right now. I can only hope this bit of public airing lights a fire under their collective hindquarters and have them take action. At the very least, they owe you one hell of an apology.
Best wishes.
- Barrett
Ezzie
E. D. Russell Roberts
My tuppence worth. I a NKOTF. As such I've not yet had time to appreciate your contributions. But I must say it's a bit drastic leaving the RFF due to the minor technicality that you'll no longer be using a rangefinder. I scoured the different forums for a long time before becoming a member of RFF. It's the most entertaining, interesting and knowledge sharing forum there is. Others may be too serious, or not serious enough. If ever I stop shooting RF, I'll still hang out here, If they'll let me....
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
Why not let the guys mount an RFF petition - a pressure group? Just give us an email address and they'll be deluged! You won't have to do a thing.