Thinking...and it hurts my poor little pea brain

[farlymac]

I'm trying to come up with a plan for going from F to Z for my system, and the way things are starting to change it's hard to keep up with all the possibilities.

The supposedly easiest change will be swapping out my two D300s's for a Z50 or Zfc, or one of each. I like most of the design features of the Z50, but the internal improvements and articulated screen of the Zfc makes a compelling argument. That screen is something I've always missed since I quit using my P7700.

And I have a raft of DX lenses that only need an FTZ adapter to be able to use them on the Z50/fc. But now the word is that Nikon is reworking the FTZ to possibly make it compatible with the older focus screw drive lenses, so if I had a Z6II I'd be able to use all my D lenses in AF mode with the added security of IBIS.

Then Viltrox comes out with a line of AF primes for FX and another set for DX, and at very nice price points. Of course, I'll have to wait until the reports come in from the real world users to see if they are any good, or if there is too much sample variation. By that time some other manufacturer will have introduced new lens designs.

If Nikon would have only designed the Z system correctly the first time, there wouldn't have to be this flurry of new products to catch up to Canon and Sony. They started too late, and then still took the low track just to get product out to the user. Now with the production chain issues rattling the entire world, it's going to take even longer to straighten out the mess they created by leaving features off the cameras that a lot of folks wanted.

And even pricing is hard to figure out for any more than a month ahead. When the FTZ came out it was $249.00, then was offered as an included option in a body kit at a discount. Later on it could be added to a body or body/lens kit for only $99.00. Now it's back up to full price, and not available as an option on a body purchase, so that made all my pricing calculations go out the window.

If the FTZ2 has the screw drive included, then I'll have to seriously consider getting a Z6II. If the Z50 MkII happens, then I should get one of those, and the Viltrox AF primes.

Or maybe by then something else will have happened, and completely wreck my careful system replacement plans one more time. I'm highly optimistic that's the way it will go.

PF

 

[Ronald M]

Can't win with electronics, ie computers & cameras.

Buy a full frame and be done. Z lenses are better than older anything except a few specials.
Replace with new zoom or 35 50 85 set. I will go for primes.

Buy a Z50 and you are stuck with the tiny viewfinder image forever

A D300 is old, but low ISO images are good. Probably not much improvement at low ISO with Z especially if you do not replace lenses. So it depends on you needs. You can not track moving subjects with image from sensor. Image jumps around like a 1920 movie. Refresh rate is too slow.

Wait and do it all at one time.

 

[farlymac]

Can't win with electronics, ie computers & cameras.

Buy a full frame and be done. Z lenses are better than older anything except a few specials.
Replace with new zoom or 35 50 85 set. I will go for primes.

Buy a Z50 and you are stuck with the tiny viewfinder image forever

A D300 is old, but low ISO images are good. Probably not much improvement at low ISO with Z especially if you do not replace lenses. So it depends on you needs. You can not track moving subjects with image from sensor. Image jumps around like a 1920 movie. Refresh rate is too slow.

Wait and do it all at one time.

That makes a lot of sense. Especially since I want to be able to use my Leica lenses at full size without going to the expense of an M10 body.

PF

 

[gavinlg]

I would wholeheartedly recommend a used Z6 to put you in the full frame space - can pick them up pretty reasonably. The z50 is a really nice crop body - the nicest of all the manufacturers IMO, but you'll almost definitely want to upgrade to a FF body at some point - especially if you're interested in adapting lenses etc.

If choosing between the z50 and zfc, I would pick the z50. Body feels better to me.

I work in a camera store lab at the moment, so I get to handle these things quite a bit.

 

[gavinlg]

Buy a full frame and be done. Z lenses are better than older anything except a few specials.

I have to agree with this, the Z lenses are a big step up from F lenses optically.

 

[Timmyjoe]

I went with the Z6 early and absolutely love it when used with my rangefinder glass. Not so much with the FTZ and Nikkor F glass. When you take the lightweight Z camera body, and put the FTZ on the front, and then hang an F mount lens onto that, the lightweight camera body becomes very front heavy and doesn't have the shooting feel of my old Nikon DSLR's, and I don't find it pleasant to shoot with. I don't own any Z-mount Nikkor glass, but I've heard good things about it, and it would solve the front heavy issue.

Again though, the Z series bodies with the lightweight rangefinder glass is a sweet combination.

Just my 2¢ worth.

Best,
-Tim

 

[lukx]

I agree that as soon as you think about adapting old film era lenses, a full-frame body is the best way to do it. Not because I'm a full-frame snob (I quite like the Fuji X ecosystem), but simply because the crop factor is very limiting when using such lenses.

All wide-angles become normal lenses, and 50mm provides a fov of about 75mm, which is too narrow for many applications. Some pay big money for speed booster adapters (which don't even exist for rangefinder lenses), but they might as well just spend that extra money on a FF body right away.

 

[jsrockit]

Sell everything and start over. It’s time… adapters are clunky. Do you really need all of these lenses for your photography or are you only really using a few?

 

[Larry Cloetta]

…If Nikon would have only designed the Z system correctly the first time, there wouldn't have to be this flurry of new products to catch up to Canon and Sony. They started too late, and then still took the low track just to get product out to the user. Now with the production chain issues rattling the entire world, it's going to take even longer to straighten out the mess they created by leaving features off the cameras that a lot of folks wanted….

PF

For what it’s worth, my two cents: I’ve owned and used Nikon F cameras for a long time, owned mirrorless cameras, Sonys, Leicas, 1 Canon, and Nikons, starting with the original Sony mirrorless, right after that was introduced. Both crop frame and full frame for the Sonys and the Leicas, and full frame for the Nikon.
With that background, my observation is that a lot of “influencers” on the web were early on throwing out an awful lot of ill considered noise about the Z series cameras, noise which caused many people who hadn’t actually used the cameras to think that Nikon hadn’t “designed the Z system correctly the first time.” Most of it was the result of hurried reviews done by people who were trying to meet an internet deadline, and most of it was nitpicking about the only real (though in reality minor) shortcoming the first Z bodies, with the original firmware, the small differences in the speed and/or the accuracy of the AF, compared to Sony. Without going into a lot of detail, even that bit of “news” was mostly wrong, caused by internet reviewers who obviously hadn’t bothered to read or understand the effing manual regarding how to set up AF tracking (though in typical Nikon fashion, the marketing and the descriptions in the manual may not have been the best.) But the cameras themselves were genius, from the beginning, and they’ve only gotten better. When the Z7 was introduced, the D850 had the best overall full frame sensor on the market, and the Z7 used that same sensor. Having used the alternatives, most of them, it’s unfortunate for Nikon that the perception that they had “taken the low track just to get product out to the user” was created by early, not particularly qualified, reviewers. That wasn’t remotely the truth. It’s the fault of Nikon’s abysmal marketing that this misperception has been allowed to remain. If Nikon used Leica’s marketing people and approach to market their cameras, I doubt that anyone would buy anything else.
Having said that, whether older screw drive lenses is a deal breaker or not is a personal decision. It wasn’t for me. Adapting screw drive lenses in addition to every other kind of F lens posed some design issues and compromises to Nikon at the time and they made what was probably the best design decision available to them at the time. It’s not that they were unaware that some people had a lot of screw drive AF lenses, people who were going to be upset. Perhaps there may be new design answers available now. I’ve got Ai lenses, Ai-s lenses and modern-ish Nikon AF lenses I use on a Z7. I’d already gotten rid of all my screw drive lenses years before the Z bodies came out and replaced them with something newer, and to my mind, something that did a better job for an AF lens. But not everyone felt that way.
But, for someone with a long Nikon history, the Z bodies are going to be likely nicer and more familiar to use than the bodies from any other mfg. And for a long term Nikon F user switching to mirrorless, who owns a lot of Nikon F glass, I’d definitely recommend one of the full frame bodies over a crop sensor. Maybe a crop sensor body in addition to a Z7 or Z6 body, but not instead of.

I would wholeheartedly recommend a used Z6 to put you in the full frame space - can pick them up pretty reasonably. The z50 is a really nice crop body - the nicest of all the manufacturers IMO, but you'll almost definitely want to upgrade to a FF body at some point - especially if you're interested in adapting lenses etc.

If choosing between the z50 and zfc, I would pick the z50. Body feels better to me.

I work in a camera store lab at the moment, so I get to handle these things quite a bit.

Good advice from someone who likely knows the ins and outs of what’s available and how the options work in the real world.

Hoping and expecting, PF, that you end up being happy regardless of which way you go, and I expect you will be.

 

[Godfrey]

Sell everything and start over. It’s time… adapters are clunky. Do you really need all of these lenses for your photography or are you only really using a few?

Um, uh ... hmm.

I'm perfectly happy with adapters. I have made excellent use of my delightful Leica R and M lenses on the Leica SL and CL, the Sony A7, and the Hasselblad 907x. They work great, they produce beautiful photographs, I don't have to spend any more money buying lenses. (Well, I did anyway for the Hasselblad, but who's doing accounting? 🙂)

I prefer manual focus and seeing my actual aperture's rendering in the viewfinder. Yeah, yeah ... everyone wants AF nowadays. I don't care.

I still have too many lenses, but that's another issue. I mostly use three-four of them... 😀

I gave up on Nikon after the D750: I'm just not all that fond of modern Nikon user ergonomics and design. It's fine if it works for you ... It just doesn't work the way I like my cameras to work. Choice in the marketplace is a good thing.

I need to go fondle my '61 F plain prism now... LOL!

G

 

[PaulW128]

I wanted to add my thoughts to the excellent advice you've received so far; Consider also the Nikon Z5. Full frame, very similar to the Z6 and refurbished Z5's have been selling for $1000 (US) recently. B&H currently has the Z5 body + 24-50mm for #1299.00 (refurbished by Nikon.

Good luck!
Paul

 

[willie_901]

Sell everything and start over. It’s time… adapters are clunky. Do you really need all of these lenses for your photography or are you only really using a few?

I agree completely.

The Z bodies offer more dynamic range and shadow region detail (signal-to-noise ratio) compared to any screw-drive Nikon body. These data show the Z bodies' advantage is most significant at ISO 200.

The D lenses' AF capabilities can not take full advantage of the Z bodies' AF technologies.

 

[farlymac]

Lots of good feedback here, thanks all.


After looking again at the comparison between Z5 and Z6II, I'm reminded that the main reason I chose the Z6II was the battery grip. If I wanted shutter control with the Z5, I'd have to go with a third party (Velo) grip which only gives you a release with an add-on cable and the button in the wrong position, though it does include on-board charging via a USB-C port. However, with the Z6II the grip also includes the duplicate control dials, and a Function button. Otherwise, I'd look to save the extra $600-700 with a Z5 since the two cameras match up in most respects except the sensor and burst speed. Having used grips on several of my Nikons it's important to me that it be more useful than as just a repository for an extra cell. Even the D80 had a better grip than the one for the original Z6/7. But when it comes down to laying the money on the barrel head, I may have to go with the Z5, and forget about the grip. I like the Dual-SD card slots better than the SD-CFExpress combo on the Z6II.



I've been trying to look at the Z50 and Z6/7 at the local store, but they are always out of one or the other so it's been difficult to make that comparison. I did get a look at the Z7 yesterday, and it feels good in the hand, the controls are familiar, and the size is much better than my chunky D610.


The more I read about how the Z lenses work with the bodies, I am getting more convinced to get the 24-200 and add the Viltrox prime trio later on. I'd love to get a longer zoom, but those are a little above my pay grade right now, and third party options are not quite available.


I'm not going to dump all my old gear just to fund a Z system purchase, but I do have other items I can get rid of like the accumulation of Canon, Minolta, and Olympus stuff that's sitting around in plastic containers (not gathering dust). That was from my experimental phase, and I went right back to Nikon after satisfying that itch. Besides, the D lenses are perfect for my F100, or if I finally get an F4E. I'm only up to an F3 at the moment. (Nikon shooter since 1972)


The only other thing I wish Nikon would do is make a rangefinder style APS-C with a decent range zoom. But that's a post for a different sub-forum.


Again, thanks to all for the feedback, it's going to help me immensely when I make the switch.



PF

 

[pixelated]

This is a pathway I've been following just recently.
I had decided that it was time to get a full-frame digi, and in the past couple of years had acquired some D primes that I chose specifically for compatibility with some of my older film bodies.
So, as of a couple of weeks ago, I was deciding between a Z5 and a Z6 and found a used Z6 at a very good price. Bought it along with a new FTZ adaptor and a used 24-50 Z lens.

I've been using various combinations of manual focus lenses, AF D's and the Z lens. Manual focus with the D lenses isn't so bad, especially with the focus highlights turned on, but it would be nicer to have the full AF capability. One of my primes is a 50mm F/2 AF , I've decided that I will either replace it with an AFS 50, or else just get a Z mount equivalent, as it duplicates non AF primes I have. I'm still working on that decision.

As for the FTZ, it in combination with some of the shorter primes, isn't any bigger than the some of the Z lenses. It puts the controls farther from the body, but I've not found that to be much problem. The various exposure modes work pretty well with just about anything.

I decided to go with the Z instead of another SLR to be completely up with the times. I also wanted the ability to adapt some of my rangefinder optics which the Z does nicely. If Nikon comes out with an AF adapter, I will probably look at getting it, though spending another 2 or 3 hundred will be a little tough.

I'm still sorting out working with the Z, overall, I like it quite a lot, at this moment, the primary thing I don't like about is the time-out on the screens. I've been doing a lot of experiments using a macro or bellows for slide copies and it likes to shut off before I'm ready. For most general picture-making it's not a huge problem though. But it takes some accommodation if you're slow at composing. The other disappointment is the 24-50, I wanted at least a token Z lens so I had something that had full compatibility with the camera. The shop had a used one at a good price, but it's disappointing next to my D primes, even though it auto focuses.

Feature-wise the Z5 is all but identical, had I bought new I was pretty set to buy the Z5, but the Z6 I ended up with was offered at a not-to-be refused price, even factoring in paying full price for the adapter.

 

[Vince Lupo]

I'm still sorting out working with the Z, overall, I like it quite a lot, at this moment, the primary thing I don't like about is the time-out on the screens. I've been doing a lot of experiments using a macro or bellows for slide copies and it likes to shut off before I'm ready. For most general picture-making it's not a huge problem though. But it takes some accommodation if you're slow at composing.

Go into the 'settings' menu (the pencil icon), then go to 'C' (Timers/AE-L), then C3 (power off delay), and you can adjust the length of time it will take to shut off.

Speaking as someone who uses his Z7 for work almost every single day (for both stills and video), I'm overall very happy with the camera. I do use the FTZ adapter for my 17-35/2.8 lens and the 24/3.5 and 28/3.5 PC lenses and haven't had any issues at all. Two things do annoy me about the camera -- sometimes the AF point jumps around on screen on its own, and this camera loves to eat batteries. So if you do get the camera and intend on using it a fair bit, be sure to get a couple of additional batteries.

I personally don't think they 'didn't design it right the first time'. I think they did just fine, and those Z lenses are pretty hard to beat. The 24-70/2.8 is a wonderful lens and is superior to the F-mount version, and the f/1.8 primes are as good as anything I've ever owned. But I'm certainly no expert nor 'influencer' - I'm just a working stiff with a camera trying to slug it out there like everyone else.

 

[farlymac]

Okay, here's the latest (now that RFF is back online). I was still drawn between upgrading either the DX or FX systems when I decided on DX should be first, since I have the most compatible lenses for it. Started looking around for a decent used Z50 and whatever else there was available. I had been told by my local store they were out of that model as the one in the display case had been sold. Well, searching for the 50-250mm came up a cropper too as no one had any new, and the few used ones were over priced. Plus having to deal with multiple sellers just for putting the basic system together was going to be an issue in of itself. But no one had the two-lens kit either.

I had resigned myself to just building the kit a little at a time, but had plans on making a trip back home soon, so I wanted to have something in hand before that. So once more it was back to the camera store, only I was actually looking for a ballhead for a tripod I'd recently gotten from them (in case I don't find the one that's around here somewhere). So I'm chatting with the clerk about different things, and he goes to the back room to check on their stock of ballheads. While he was gone I glanced around at the top shelf behind the register only to see about six Nikon Z boxes. The first one was a Z7, which was out of my price range so I moved my gaze to the next box which housed a Z50. Hmmf, thought they were out of those. The next box had the Z50/16-50mm kit. "I can settle for that right now" I thought to myself. But what else is up there? Lo and behold, there was a Z50/2 Lens Kit! I couldn't believe it! Quite possibly one of the last ones to be had anywhere in the USA. Needless to say, when the clerk returned I had him retrieve it, and all thoughts of getting a ballhead just disappeared (besides, they were out of the particular one I wanted).

After I got the kit home I started looking up where I could get the accessories while the battery was charging. Had to look far and wide for a dealer that had both the lens hoods and rear caps (the Nikon bean counters mandated they not be included, but at least put those "icing cups" on the lenses). I also ordered an SB-500 flash, SC-28 off-camera sync cord, FTZ adapter, and a Fotazy Leica M-to-Nikon Z mount adapter. For extra batteries I had to go with Kastar plus a dual charger as everyone is out of the EN-EL25 cells. I sourced the SDXC UHS-1 card locally, and went back to the camera store for a quick release sling strap, winding up with the Peak Design Slide Lite. Can't get the Nikon ME-1 microphone, so I'll order that when I get back from Indiana.

This is just the start of my switch to mainly digital. I'm looking forward to the arrival of the DX 18-150mm later this year since it will cut down on how many times I'll need to change lenses. I'm also anticipating the FTZ2 redesign to see if it includes an AF screw drive for my D lenses. If it does, then a Z5 could be the next body I get, also likely after the first of the year. I'm already liking the lightness of the Z50 kit, but do need to think about putting it in a bigger bag if I'm going to carry my flip-flash bracket around.

Main thing right now is getting used to all the new icons on the Z50, and where they are placed on the screens (some of them switch places when changing from the monitor screen to the viewfinder). I've already done a shoot with it, but want to get it out on a drive around to really stretch its legs. It's a lot of camera for the price though. It's everything I wanted in a small system, except for the flip screen instead of fully articulating.

PF

Hey! I found the ME-1, ME-W1, and ES-2 kit at my local store. I had to put them on hold since I'm making that journey home, but in a couple of weeks I should be learning some new video practices, and copying my old slides.

 

[farlymac]

I'm considering taking PaulW128's advice and ordering the Z5 Refurb from B&H. It kind of changes the path I had mapped out for building out the system, but at the price it's selling ($400 under MSRP) I can't wait till later when it might not be around. The 24-200 FX is out of stock everywhere, so that will have to wait, then there is the 18-140 DX coming available in November and I might want to get that first. I can get whatever lens adapters I want for the Z5 to be able to get plenty of use from it until the 24-200 arrives. Lots to consider in the coming year, but my birthday is tomorrow, and that Z5 sure would be a nice "gift".

PPF

 

[Austintatious]

A very Happy Birthday to you Phil !
Hope you enjoy all your new gear 😀

 

[farlymac]

A very Happy Birthday to you Phil !
Hope you enjoy all your new gear 😀

Thanks, Charles. The Z5 should be here on Tuesday.

PF

 

[Bolo Kukus]

Me too - unusually for me, almost everything posted by everybody in this thread resonates with me. And my brain is tired too...

I went thru this dilemma earlier this year when (probably for want of better or more interesting things to do during one of our seemingly endless lockdowns) I deliberated for many weeks as to whether or not I would change my arsenal of Nikon digis - two D700s and one D800 - for what seems to be an ever-growing brigade of new Z models. I

looked at the Z6, Z7 and even a Df and thanks to a fine secondhand dealer in Melbourne who is not only a most reputable seller but over the past 30 years has become a good friend (not the one out in the eastern suburban boondocks, if anyone Down Under is curious as to who this is, I as ale to borrow and test-drive one of all three. I found having to deal with those three entirely different machines all too confusing for my weary (and probably jaded) mind, so in the end I decided to stay with my excellent D800, which does everything I want it to and came to me with the big plus that I bought it as a demo with 1200 actuations on its 'mileometer' for AUD$900.

Enough long sentences!! Some may think this is cynical, but I've concluded that Nikon being a business out for a profit on all it does, wants me to make a big, big investment in not only a new camera (the Z range) but lenses and other accessories. Which at my age and on my income, is a waste of money and resources.

So I'll stay with my very good D800, which takes all my D series lenses (I have 10) and does everything I want it to do, superbly well. My D700s are now my back-ups and my partner loves them and is using them during our country trips, which are so far this year all the travel we've been able to do.

Next year when I go back to Southeast Asia for a very long trek across several countries, or rather if I do, well - then I may look at the wee small Z50 with the kit lens. That will be it for me. Small is better, KISS is the way.

I rather think many in my age bracket and situation are doing exactly this. C-19 has taught some of us a few good lessons, one of the most important ones being we really don't need many new play toys to keep us amused and stimulated. Going by the numbers of my photographer friends who've move back into film shooting with their now-ancient Nikon Fs and Nikkormats in the past year, I predict this is a trend that will not only continue, but go on growing and growing. As it should.

Rampant consumerism be darned... that's my motto now. Sorry, Nikon, but. But!!