shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
I have never seen a workshop that is dumb enough to imply (let alone guarantee) "3 days with me and you'll be a Magnum caliber photographer." Yes, false expectations do occur, but that is not predominantly the fault of the workshop giver.
In the beginning of a proper workshop (or prior if it involves travel), there should be a forum to synchronize expectations. Both the teacher and the students have the opportunity to exit then.
I agree on the second point, though, that a workshop alone is not sufficient as an aid to grow in your photography, the opposite side on the spectrum is a hobbyist "club" with mind-numbing "contests" and barely any direction at all beyond "theme of the month."
I think there is a place for something in between the two extremes: a work-club perhaps.
In the beginning of a proper workshop (or prior if it involves travel), there should be a forum to synchronize expectations. Both the teacher and the students have the opportunity to exit then.
I agree on the second point, though, that a workshop alone is not sufficient as an aid to grow in your photography, the opposite side on the spectrum is a hobbyist "club" with mind-numbing "contests" and barely any direction at all beyond "theme of the month."
I think there is a place for something in between the two extremes: a work-club perhaps.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Fair enough. But more and more magazines devote more and more pages to advertising 'workshops' and 'courses', and GMC is even touting a Photographic Holidays and Courses Guide Book 2011. They can't all be good, but someone is keeping most of them alive.
Quite a few of the people I've met who've been on courses really are no-hopers who couldn't be lashed into thinking with a cat o' nine tails. Some of them go on courses to get away from The Wife (as they call her); for others, it's their only social life. I'd hate to be cooped up with a dozen such people.
And some of the people who run courses and workshops I know to be indifferent photographers with modest technical knowledge and poor communication skills, but undentable egos. Put it this way: they're worse (and less known)than I am, and I'm hesitant about the idea of giving workshops.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Arles can change your life too, not least because you'll see an enormous range of work by a wide variety of photographers, and you'll see how good some of them are and how bad others are, far more than you can from looking at their pictures in books and magazines. There are also all kinds of lectures and Q&A sessions, though of course many (not all) are in French.
Most of us have some difficulty in finding the time or money to fly or drive somewhere, stay at an hotel, and devote a week or more at a time to photography. Frances and I go to Arles every year, doing just this, and I find it hard to believe that I'd get as much out of a workshop, which in any case, I can't afford because of having spent the time and money on Arles...
Cheers,
R.
sanmich
Veteran
some remarks, mostly from friends, some questions, some direction to pay attention to the work of a certain photog, have sometimes allowed a significant leap in my way of shooting.
And all that was from non professional friends.
Why wouldn't a good teacher be able to learn your work, point at your weaknesses, suggest new directions etc?
I'm attending DAH workshop, starting in two days (See you there, Dave
).
It wasn't easy for me to afford it, and I certainly don't see it as a vacation set around chitchating over our latest gear and minggelling.
I have great expectations, mainly because DAH and I have interacted in the past and he was very helpful, very "to the point", extremely quick at pointing at a weakness of mine and in finding the way to "teach" me. He actually addressed me to the work of Eugene Richards, and it was a great discovery for me.
I know that there is no "magic bullet" ,but I think that knowledge and experience can be tought just like in any field. Of course, the real geniuses won't need any workshop, and the hopeless photog wanabes neither. But since I know I don't belong to the first category, and I have hopes not to belong to the second, I am very exited to participate in that workshop (Also because for me, it seems it is a once in a verry long time opportunity).
wish me luck
And all that was from non professional friends.
Why wouldn't a good teacher be able to learn your work, point at your weaknesses, suggest new directions etc?
I'm attending DAH workshop, starting in two days (See you there, Dave
).It wasn't easy for me to afford it, and I certainly don't see it as a vacation set around chitchating over our latest gear and minggelling.
I have great expectations, mainly because DAH and I have interacted in the past and he was very helpful, very "to the point", extremely quick at pointing at a weakness of mine and in finding the way to "teach" me. He actually addressed me to the work of Eugene Richards, and it was a great discovery for me.
I know that there is no "magic bullet" ,but I think that knowledge and experience can be tought just like in any field. Of course, the real geniuses won't need any workshop, and the hopeless photog wanabes neither. But since I know I don't belong to the first category, and I have hopes not to belong to the second, I am very exited to participate in that workshop (Also because for me, it seems it is a once in a verry long time opportunity).
wish me luck
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
This happens often.. SO OFTEN in Wedding Photography.
I've gone to a handful of conventions and only 2 real "workshops" - one I found extremely helpful BUT I knew the photographer before hand - I knew what he was about, how he taught his class AND I knew he had nothing to hock.
That said.. I know of 20-somethings who currently are doing the "seminar" schtick. I personally don't know what they can teach me other than throwing more really bad photoshop techniques at me. More textures, more really really saturated stuff that shouldn't be saturated and more really unsaturated stuff to make the image look like it's Kodachrome from the 1970.
Anyway, some of the seminars/workshops are worth it but you gotta make sure you remember to check things out beforehand so you don't waste your money and your time.. as with anything.. CAVEAT EMPTOR (that over used term...)
Cheers,
Dave
I've gone to a handful of conventions and only 2 real "workshops" - one I found extremely helpful BUT I knew the photographer before hand - I knew what he was about, how he taught his class AND I knew he had nothing to hock.
That said.. I know of 20-somethings who currently are doing the "seminar" schtick. I personally don't know what they can teach me other than throwing more really bad photoshop techniques at me. More textures, more really really saturated stuff that shouldn't be saturated and more really unsaturated stuff to make the image look like it's Kodachrome from the 1970.
Anyway, some of the seminars/workshops are worth it but you gotta make sure you remember to check things out beforehand so you don't waste your money and your time.. as with anything.. CAVEAT EMPTOR (that over used term...
)Cheers,
Dave
Jamie123
Veteran
I've never taken a workshop but always felt like they're a waste of time. If you want to learn, go assist, if you want to know a photographer's opinion on your work, write them an e-mail with a link to your website.
jwc57
Well-known
I used to mentor high school students for their senior project, if they chose photography. The first meeting I made it clear that their style was their style. If it worked for them, that was all that mattered. If they felt something wasn't right, it wasn't. I was more of a psychiatrist...I didn't tell them what I didn't like, that was just me, but asked them what they didn't like. They always knew what they didn't like and once they admitted it, they almost always knew the solution.
Going to a workshop to have your work critiqued for improvement, means that you already knew there was something not quite "right". Asking someone else how to improve it...is just asking their opinion based on what they like or prefer. It is fine, I guess, to be pointed in a direction, but for many taking a workshop is like taking the bus and letting someone else do the driving. I think you learn more taking that road yourself and learning how to correct your own mistakes.
Going to a workshop to have your work critiqued for improvement, means that you already knew there was something not quite "right". Asking someone else how to improve it...is just asking their opinion based on what they like or prefer. It is fine, I guess, to be pointed in a direction, but for many taking a workshop is like taking the bus and letting someone else do the driving. I think you learn more taking that road yourself and learning how to correct your own mistakes.
ethics_gradient
Well-known
I went to one that was free in Bangkok; the guy did paid ones (I think about $200, pretty steep by local standards) and was I think hoping people would like them and sign up for those. I consider myself at least an intermediate photographer and I feel like I walked away with more than I started with, and had I been around longer I would have seriously considered going for one of the paid ones. I know at least 2-3 other attendees ultimately did, and they enjoyed them as well. Photographic knowledge aside, it was also great for meeting other people in the area also interested in photography.
So no, I don't think they're a "scam".
So no, I don't think they're a "scam".
sanmich
Veteran
Why would you like a pro to spend more time than to answer your mail by a "great" or "you suck" for free?
They are pros.
That's why you value their opinion, and if you choose right, their teaching skills.
In any case, that's why you value their time.
If I want someone to seriously pay attention to my work, and take the time, I have to take it seriously myself with all the implications.
They do need to pay bills at the end of the day, don't they...
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Every once in a while, sure. But you'd be surprised at how leech-like some people can be. Years ago there was a guy who used to call me from Germany, mailed me film so I coukd diagnose the faults, etc. It took a long time to persuade him that if even 1% of the people who read my books were as demanding as he, there'd be no books.
Cheers,
R.
David R Munson
写真のオタク
As one who also has been taught and who teaches, I see your point about the long-term relationship and agree with it. However, I feel you may be too quick to dismiss the value of a good workshop. Note the qualification of *good. There are plenty of workshops out there that are utter crap and I won't deny that in the least. However, there are plenty that are fantastic and can offer all sorts of enriching experience and learning that might not be had any other way. I believe firmly that not only is the workshop format a hugely potent educational tool in the arts, but one that is largely underdeveloped and underexploited. That is, not only can be used to great effect, there's a lot more potential to it than most people realize.
No, a great photographer isn't made overnight, but when was that ever the point? Those who will chase magic bullets will always chase magic bullets. Workshops aren't the whole picture, but they can be an incredibly valuable tool in a photographer's journey. They should never be the only resource in a photographer's evolution, but IMO neither should a long-term relationship with a teacher.
Your feelings about workshops might change a great deal were you to take part in one. I have taken workshops, have spent a number of years as a freelance photographic assistant, and have also solicited the opinion of other photographers regarding my own work. Of the three, randomly contacting photographers (most of them) for opinions has by far been the least effective means of learning anything aside from how little time most have to address such inquiries. For learning the technical side of things, assisting has unquestionably taught me more than anything else. However, for learning about photography—specifically, about making images—I have found workshops and other intensive-learning opportunities to be without comparison the most fruitful, challenging, and rewarding educational experiences I have had.
For what it's worth (and I think people's experience/origins are often useful perspective in these discussions), I have been seriously pursuing photography for about fifteen years now, hold a degree in commercial photography from Ohio University's School of Visual Communication with an art history minor, have completed both photographic workshops and independent studies, am deeply interested in the philosophy, practice, and learning methods of photography, and have been professionally involved in the commercial photo industry since early 2004.
Jamie123
Veteran
I fully agree and wouldn't want to advise anyone to start harassing photographers. What I meant is, if you're truly passionate about a specific photographer's work and it would mean a lot to you to get his opinion on your work then why not reach out to him/her via e-mail. Or, you could also put together a set of beautifully printed postcards with your work, stick them in a fruit basket, maybe add a good bottle of wine and send it to said photographer with a respectufl letter. It'll still be cheaper than spending thousands of dollars on a one week workshop.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Jamie,
Hey, great idea... You want a job doing my PR?
Commission only, I'm afraid.
Nah, thought you wouldn't.
The sad truth is that even very 'successful' photographers often make absurdly little money. Ignoring my own case -- I'm a writer at least as much as a photographer -- I've met seriously well-regarded award-winning photographers who need odd jobs in order to survive. Cinema usherette, anyone?
An equally sad truth is that the most demanding people are also, in many cases, the least considerate.
Cheers,
R.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
I get emails fairly often from teens and college students taking photo classes asking me about my work. Some ask about technical stuff but most want to know what motivates me to shoot what I do, etc. A lot of them get assignment for school to write about a living photographer whose work they like. I've always been happy to help them and I've sent most of them a print they can show off to their class when they give their presentation. Yeah, it costs me a little money to print a 6x9 or whatever I send, and I could demand they pay for a couple hundred for it like a rich collector, but hell I remember being young and encountering a lot of arrogant *******s in the profession who wouldn't even talk to you. I have tried hard not to treat young photographers that way if they're sincere about wanting to do creative work.
Sparrow
Veteran
"Education is not a bucket to fill, but a fire to be lit" or something like that, Joyce or Yeats I think, just about fits my view
OK for the technical stuff, but the creative side I suspect if you are creative you don't need it and if you are not it's pointless
OK for the technical stuff, but the creative side I suspect if you are creative you don't need it and if you are not it's pointless
easyrider
Photo addict
Does an RFF meeting count as a workshop?? )
)
Damaso
Photojournalist
Finder
Veteran
Good for you.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
It has to depend on the workshop. I attended an Anderson Ranch workshop about twenty years ago, which was a very intensive week, lots of time in the darkroom, lots of time discussing the work,- arguing about the work- and I came away having learned a lot. I don't doubt there are plenty of scam workshops out there, but they aren't all scams. I think I gained as much insight in that week in Colorado as I did in a whole semester at RISD.
Anyone truly serious wouldn't expect to get the holy grail from a week-long workshop, nor should anyone with any sense. If it was that easy...
I get the impression that the internet is the sole means of expression and learning for many 'photographers'- a week spent having to talk about your work, defend your ideas or methods or simply respond to the work of others is infinitely more valuable than posting pictures to a forum or flickr page for a year.
If one chooses a workshop that is a good fit with their mindset and working I don't think it would be a waste, assuming they were willing to put in the work a workshop requires. And as in any learning experience it has as much to do with what one gives as what one gets.
Anyone truly serious wouldn't expect to get the holy grail from a week-long workshop, nor should anyone with any sense. If it was that easy...
I get the impression that the internet is the sole means of expression and learning for many 'photographers'- a week spent having to talk about your work, defend your ideas or methods or simply respond to the work of others is infinitely more valuable than posting pictures to a forum or flickr page for a year.
If one chooses a workshop that is a good fit with their mindset and working I don't think it would be a waste, assuming they were willing to put in the work a workshop requires. And as in any learning experience it has as much to do with what one gives as what one gets.
goo0h
Well-known
Say, how did that work out for you? I just recently noticed this guy's photos, and must say I like his stuff....
Teuthida
Well-known
You need to distingiush between teaching technique and teaching aesthetics. A workshop might help someone trying to learn "how to" do something if its done competently. It will never teach you to take compelling pictures however, but that, unfortunately, is why many attend, because they believe that rubbing elbows with X for a few days will allow tgem to take photos like X.
I've never learned a thing about Developing my own photographic vision by being tutored by somebody else, and without boring you with the details, I've studied at a few fairly prestigious institutions as part of my photographic training. I only developed my own eye when i completely immersed myself in photographs of others for years, which freed me up to realize that the best don't follow rules but rather their own idiosyncratic vision, and then gave myself permission to do the same.
I've never learned a thing about Developing my own photographic vision by being tutored by somebody else, and without boring you with the details, I've studied at a few fairly prestigious institutions as part of my photographic training. I only developed my own eye when i completely immersed myself in photographs of others for years, which freed me up to realize that the best don't follow rules but rather their own idiosyncratic vision, and then gave myself permission to do the same.