Tilt-shift on rangefinders, or alternatives

[Phantomas]

After some continuous viewing of many wonderful tilt-shift lens images just now (and later realizing they were Graflex) I got wondering about various possibilities of tilt-shifting on various systems. But I'm stuck when it comes to rangefinders. These are the first i thought of when I started to entertain the idea of trying something similar, but to be honest I have no clue what possibilities there are out there.

I'm vaguely familiar with SLR and large-format tilt-shift possibilities (as well as Hassie) and must admit find SLR-like compact and flexible systems more appealing, due to compact size and flexibility. Obviously large-format cameras undoubtedly produce amazing results and can be made mobile if needed, but I find that I'd be more interested in something that is not necessarily rail-mounted (even Hassie).

Just an open discussion as I don't know what opportunities there are. Something rangefinder compatible (with M, LTM, etc mounting) and compact would be interesting. But I'd also like to hear your ideas about achieving tilt-shift effects with other compact gear, or even with conventional gear techniques (for example can something be done with a folder camera, since the lens is already, well, flexible?).

Post your examples, that'd be great! I'm basically curious what's out there in tilt-shift department.

 

[sheepdog]

How would you predict the effect without a ground glass?

 

[Phantomas]

I don't know. 🙂

Yet.

 

[funkaoshi]

If you think a little bit about how the whole tilt-shift thing works, and how range finders work, you will probably come to the conclusion that this won't work at all.

 

[venchka]

If there were a lens made, very unlikely, it might maybe work on a Visoflex. Otherwise, no.

Even the Crown/Speed Graphics with rangefinders have very limited tilt (backwards only) and miniscule shift. And you have to view the ground glass when using tilt & shift.

Movements are best left to the real tilt, shift, swing cameras.

 

[uhligfd]

Phantomas,

maybe you can get a lensbaby to match the M or .. mount and shoot away without knowing what to expect.

If you were to take exact notes you might get a set of data that lets you replicate some of the observed results.

But first I suggest you read up on how tilt-shift works (Google Scheimflug principle) through an SLR viewfinder or on an LF ground glass to get even the foggiest idea what it does geometrically and what you need to consider.

Good luck. There is always a first, and this time it is YOU who breaks the barrier.

 

[Phantomas]

I understand the reasoning behind the straightforward approach and why such system (straightforward rangefinder and a straightforward TS lens) wouldn't work and that's why I'm asking for alternatives or experiments, if you will, in that field. It doesn't have to necessarily be a Leica with an LTM lens.
For example folders (even sometimes refered to under RF category) have extendable lens. Forgive me if it's a technically ludicrous idea, but maybe there are some techniques that can achieve certain TS effects (oh be it an imperfect result without a preview) or even heavy softness in certain areas of an image.

As said, I'm looking for ideas or experiments. I understand that there's no orthodox method.



PS: for the lensbaby I could do a chain of EOS-Nikon-LTM-M converters and successfully mount it 🙂

 

[kbg32]

You could cut a small ground glass to fit over the film area between the rails, focus - tilt shift whatever to your liking, remove the glass, close the door, load film, making sure you don't move anything, and shoot away. Unfortunately, you would have to do this for every change you make.

Better to use a SLR unfortunately. Easier.

 

[bmattock]

For example folders (even sometimes refered to under RF category) have extendable lens. Forgive me if it's a technically ludicrous idea, but maybe there are some techniques that can achieve certain TS effects (oh be it an imperfect result without a preview) or even heavy softness in certain areas of an image.

Older folding cameras often had rise and shift on the front standard. Not too many had tilt and more complicated movements, but the larger press cameras like the Speed Graphic did. Some even had some amount of back movement. Obviously a special lens was not required because the moving standard provided the movement.

All of these are intended to take advantage of the 'Scheimpflug Principle', which unfortunately really requires direct view through the lens in question to see what it is going to produce. It could be calculated mathematically, I suppose, but not much takes the place of actually seeing what it is going to do.

This, to me, is along the lines of the old adapters that allowed a rangefinder to be used as an SLR. Yes, you could do it, but why? An SLR actually makes a better SLR than a rangefinder forced to be an SLR with an adapter.

 

[BillBingham2]

Another problem with using 135mm film for a lens with swings and tilts and such is the size of the gearing. You would need to have such fine movements that it would be very expensive as they will need to be very hard metal at tolerances that would make the geeks in Solms a bit crazy!

B2 (;->

 

[sanmich]

movements on RFs??
No but some time ago I was fiddling with the folling idea to reach good movements on 35mm (Nikon):
1- get a PB-4 bellows
2- built a F to 39mm adapter
3- mount an enlarger longish lens (the longer the lens the most coverage you get)

and... use the PB-4 for focusing and movements

 

[Terao]

Potentially the new Panasonic G1 platform could help here - you can mount M-mount lenses with an adapter and you have a live-view electronic viewfinder to act as ground glass. Not a rangefinder but you have two of the components of a tilt/shift system using M/LTM lenses...

 

[BigSteveG]

The idea makes no sense. Get a nice M/F or L/F view camera for your architectural shots.

 

[Ed S.]

I have an Arax 55mm Shift lens that mounts to my Pentax Super Program via a P6-to-PentaxK Tilt adapter (pictures here, at post #23, at The Kiev Report).

The lens has a shift scale (0-11mm). The Tilt mechanism does too, but visually checking the angle between the back of the camera and the lens seems easier. Both allow independent rotation around the lens axis, so a wide variety of movements are possible.

The system is easily used on my SLR, and it’s much more portable than my 5x7 (even when I change to the 4x5 back).

Adapting such a system to a rangefinder seems difficult. Assuming both the camera’s rangefinder and lens focus scale are accurate (or a reliable conversion table is created), the problems of getting the desired plane of focus and correcting converging lines remain.

Approximating the plane of focus, without looking, and using f/stop to cover any mistakes seems possible with practice.

But satisfactorally correcting vertical lines (most common) requires a considerable amount of precision. The scales on the lens and tile mechanism are good, but not this good. Guessing the exact amount of tilt and shift to do acceptable perspective correction (no looking first, to verify) seems effectively impossible.

 

[Phantomas]

Well, thanks for sharing. Basically that just reconfirms what I knew already - that most compact/versatile system would be an SLR (well, that was a given). Seeing that you lot, usually familiar with a wide range of equipment and techniques, have not come across something less "conventional" I'll take your word for it.

Well, in that case, for TS enthusiasts out there, what type of system attracts you the most? Let's see some shots if you have any, I'm really interested in seeing alternatives.


By the way, many people wouldn't consider TS architecture exclusive lens at all. Architecture shots is not what attracts me to it in the first place.

 

[johank]

Now you could solve it with a Contax and a groundglass back. But for practically use a SLR or a real camera, 4x5" or better.

 

[JonasYip]

when I travel with an rf system I always end up throwing in an f3 or fm2n with my 35 t/s lens. Some things just aren't RF friendly. though the way I use it I probably *could* make it work on an rf i.e. I'm mostly throwing things out of focus anyway. but, no, I'll stick with my SLR for this...

 

[John Robertson]

I have an Arsat 35 Shift lens for my Pentax MX, but also an adapter to use it on the Bessa. Roger Hicks Rangefinder book shows this, and yes you can predict its effect fairly accurately as he points out there.
Its not a lens I use a lot in any case as it is huge and heavy, I like my r/f equipment light and compact!!

 

[sevo]

Shift does not alter the focal plane, so that does work (and has been done on some panoramics with rangefinder). Tilt can't - while you could theoretically create a multi-spot rangefinder tracking the tilting, chances are that the spots would be in the wrong place all the time, and it would be a failure-prone mechanical nightmare.

Sevo

 

[Al Kaplan]

Get a proper tripod and a commercial view camera and get your head out of the clouds.