To collect or not to collect...

[photorat]

No offense intended, of course. To each his own and to some everyone else's as well.

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

My father used to collect cameras.

He didn't keep them forever, he bought and sold, but there were always plenty of Barnack Leicas and Rolleiflexes around the house. Sometimes a Reid or an Alpa also.

He also bought and sold lawnmowers and typewriters.

 

[photorat]

My father used to collect cameras.

He didn't keep them forever, he bought and sold, but there were always plenty of Barnack Leicas and Rolleiflexes around the house. Sometimes a Reid or an Alpa also.

He also bought and sold lawnmowers and typewriters.

Sounds a lot like my step Dad, but it was stamps and porn that he collected.

You may have posted this before the poll was online. Don't get me wrong, I like to have nice things, too but I just hate watching stuff I could use go for a small fortune on eBay only to then grace the glass cabinets of the well-to-do.

 

[srtiwari]

Cameras are, like everything else, different things to different people. Some use, some collect, while others only buy and sell.

 

[oftheherd]

I think perhaps you could use some more choices. Collectors come in many flavors. Some only want pristine examples which will go in showcases. Others want the same pristine examples to be held as investments. Some like me, when I get something unusual, I am looking for a conversation piece as well as a user. I want more to talk about than just how it looks. And there are some who only collect once in a while when the mood strikes them.

Some (and I also suffer from this), just have GAS. 😀

 

[bmattock]

Cameras are tools. Tools are meant to be used. 😉

I noted the emoticon, so don't take this response the wrong way.

What does the term 'are meant' mean? Trees are meant to be cut down and made into furniture, according to some. They are meant to be treasured and preserved for future generations according to others. According to the tree, they only thing it is 'meant' to do is try to survive, reproduce, and die. That is the extent of its 'meaning' as imposed on its own genetic code.

In other words, when we say something is 'meant' for a particular purpose, we are imposing that value upon it. That makes the value variable, not constant. But we say it that way to make it seem like some universal truth, which it is not.

So if one says that cameras 'are meant' to be used rather than collected (or vice-versa), what one is actually saying is that the person speaking intends to impose their will on the person they are speaking about. They want the subject of their statement to accede to the speaker's will.

I would reply that cameras are property. Property-owners can use their property as they see fit. So what another thinks those cameras 'are meant for' is irrelevant.

 

[Nh3]

Collectors usually don't horde on the equipment that photographers 'need', they usually concentrate on esoteric and vintage gear which has been out of production or had limited release.

For example a Nikon F100 film SLR goes for ~$200 which is the same rate as Yashica T4 P&S or half of a Ricoh GR1... This is thanks to collectors and I say keep collecting but stay away from the stuff that serious photographers need.

 

[bmattock]

It's built for the purpose of taking pictures. Otherwise it wouldn't have a shutter, wind crank, etc.

People are built for the purpose of making babies when they bump uglies. Should every romp end in a child, or is it OK to make the beast with two backs just for the fun of it?

I suspect we humans pervert the original intent of many things, mostly because we feel like it and it doesn't impact the rights of anyone else. Cameras as shelf-queens versus cameras as tools is just one of the many things that is the business of the person who has ownership of the camera in question.

 

[cjm]

Why not? Cars, stamps, cameras, etc. are all collected but built for different purposes. It's not my cup of tea but to each his own.

 

[ferider]

I never understood the difference between, say

1) for example, collect all Leicas and lenses made between year A and year B. Go many times to ebay or on-line, or to camera auctions, to search, wait for and buy stuff. Spend lots of time doing that. Try to save as much money as possible when you do, for each item - get a great deal. Put stuff on a shelve, never use it.

2) own a Leica. Accessorize it to the maximum, i.e. get rapidwinder, grip, Luigi case, TA release button in the right color, rapid rewind, etc. Buy some classic lenses. Make sure you get the right hoods. Get fitting filters. Original cases and finders, possibly. Go many times to ebay or on-line, or to camera auctions, to search, wait for and buy stuff. Spend lots of time doing that. Try to save as much money as possible when you do, for each item - get a great deal. Use the stuff.

Seems all very similar to me. If you belong to 2) (like me), face it, you are a collector. If you don't want to believe it, talk to your analyst. 🙂 Otherwise, among others, we wouldn't mind paying an extra few bucks to make sure we get risk free users. We wouldn't mind using Heavystar hoods on all our lenses. A single camera body with 3-4 lenses would be enough. We wouldn't use > 30 year old cameras in the first place. Etc.

Cheers,

Roland.

 

[cjm]

Seems all very similar to me. If you belong to 2) (like me), face it, you are a collector. Otherwise, among others, we wouldn't mind paying an extra few bucks to make sure we get risk free users. We wouldn't mind using Heavystar hoods on all our lenses. Etc.

Whew! (sigh of relief) I must not be a collector because I just got a heavystar hood for my M2. 😛

 

[photorat]

I think perhaps you could use some more choices.

I'm aware that the poll is about as subtle as a US presidential election. The intention to provoke was deliberate.

After a few trade-ups via eBay, I recently managed to score my 4th M2 in absolutely pristine condition, late model, hardly used, original box and all. The other day it got a nice solid whack against a fence post with a dent to match. I felt so happy. I had effectively saved it from a life of collecting dust.

 

[ferider]

Whew! (sigh of relief) I must not be a collector because I just got a heavystar hood for my M2. 😛

You'll "upgrade" eventually. 🙂

I recently managed to score my 4th M2 in absolutely pristine condition, late model, hardly used, original box and all.

Do I need to say more ? Why the heck does a "user" need 4 M2s 🙂 🙂 .... (note that I have 6 Ms, at the moment 😱 ...)

Roland.

 

[peter_n]

Cameras are, like everything else, different things to different people. Some use, some collect, while others only buy and sell.

Yes indeed. Live and let live.

 

[Chris101]

People are built for the purpose of making babies when they bump uglies. Should every romp end in a child, or is it OK to make the beast with two backs just for the fun of it?

I suspect we humans pervert the original intent of many things, mostly because we feel like it and it doesn't impact the rights of anyone else. Cameras as shelf-queens versus cameras as tools is just one of the many things that is the business of the person who has ownership of the camera in question.

This argument relies on intelligent design which probably works for camera equipment, but fails scientific scrutiny when it comes to living organisms such as trees and humans.

Lets face it, the angst that many budget minded film photographers feel is jealousy when they see a really nice camera being taken off the market to enhance an enclosed collection. But fear not camera users! Eventually those collections will be pieced out, either for income generation, or through estate liquidation. Ultimately, all the cameras will get sold to photographers who will push their buttons.

It's the way of natural selection. 😉

ps, "make the beast with two backs" - now there is a descriptive euphemism you don't hear everyday!

 

[photorat]

I never understood the difference between, say

1) for example, collect all Leicas and lenses made between year A and year B. Go many times to ebay or on-line, or to camera auctions, to search, wait for and buy stuff. Spend lots of time doing that. Try to save as much money as possible when you do, for each item - get a great deal. Put stuff on a shelve, never use it.

2) own a Leica. Accessorize it to the maximum, i.e. get rapidwinder, grip, Luigi case, TA release button in the right color, rapid rewind, etc. Buy some classic lenses. Make sure you get the right hoods. Get fitting filters. Original cases and finders, possibly. Go many times to ebay or on-line, or to camera auctions, to search, wait for and buy stuff. Spend lots of time doing that. Try to save as much money as possible when you do, for each item - get a great deal. Use the stuff.

Seems all very similar to me. If you belong to 2) (like me), face it, you are a collector. If you don't want to believe it, talk to your analyst. 🙂 Otherwise, among others, we wouldn't mind paying an extra few bucks to make sure we get risk free users. We wouldn't mind using Heavystar hoods on all our lenses. A single camera body with 3-4 lenses would be enough. We wouldn't use > 30 year old cameras in the first place. Etc.

Cheers,

Roland.

I think I can discern a difference and it has to do with the focus of our appreciation. With collectors, the focus of appreciation is on the object as object (as in the aesthetic experience of a work of art). With users, the focus is on the camera as a tool, i.e. on the end product, the quality of the actual photographs it produces.

There is a corresponding difference amongst the various accessories you mention. Some fall under the category of 'restoring' a camera, some relate to making it more 'usable'. A rapidwinder does not make the camera more collectable, though an original accessory viewfinder, original hood with original case, etc. probably would. I also think there are good arguments for using, e.g., a 50 year old Leica M2 over a contemporary camera based on objective criteria alone. The former are arguably of better build quality, offer better functional quality, reliability, etc. for the same money. "Classic" lenses are also generally appreciated for their performance and results as much as for their aesthetics/scarcity/historical relevance, etc.

That said, I agree the distinction is never that clear cut. There is a lot of fetishism in both users and collectors of Leica cameras. Nor are there any (necessary) normative conclusions to be drawn on the basis of this distinction. To each his own and the 'aesthetic' appreciation of an object may be a more authentic one in the end compared with the 'instrumental' appreciation of the user who reduces it to a mere means to an end.

A collector's aesthetic appreciation will always be linked to the idea of craftsmanship and the functional design of the object (i.e. its capacity to make something, even if they do not express that capacity). Conversely, and as you suggest, we all appreciate and recognize the unique aesthetic qualities and 'status' of a Leica camera and our motivations for buying them are not always based on pure functionality.

 

[photorat]

You'll "upgrade" eventually. 🙂



Do I need to say more ? Why the heck does a "user" need 4 M2s 🙂 🙂 .... (note that I have 6 Ms, at the moment 😱 ...)

Roland.

4th as in the fourth I've ever owned. I got there buying and selling the rest (I only have one of them left).

 

[mirrored]

Cameras are tools. Tools are meant to be used. 😉

Yes, and users can be grateful for collectors because they store fine tools against using too quickly. We all have little or bigger collector in our soul. Even a most heaviest user don't use camera as a hammer - and a collector don't take collection under a soil.

 

[Spider67]

One should not forget the many small scale collectors who saved many cameras who otherwise would have been scrapped. Cameras like the 35 RC or many retinas, and containers of 120 Folders would have vanished in large quantities as they were not regarded as so classic as the Leica, if not for the collector.
If someone buys a camera to look at it it's OK.
Its a nuisance for me when a sudden interst in certain models or brands suddenly skyrockets the prices eg The Canon QL 17, The Zorki 3 etc. On the other hand sometimes its a fad which ends: Zorki 3#s reached a peak of 100 €, where sold on the bay for 80 and the last auction made 40€.
The good thing about collectors is the keep the cameras in good shape and very often after their death their collection are sold off piecemeal and again those are the smalltime collectors whose collection does not ent at the big auction houses.
Oh yes I am a smalltime collector myself although it started like Abrahamsons non collection

 

[Al Kaplan]

A few years ago I picked up a mint black paint first model 28mm Elmarit from an antique dealer friend, Bill, along with a bunch of other stuff: Hassleblad 150 Sonnar, Leica CL and 40 'cron, M3 body, 90 and 135mm Elmarits, a Minolta Autocord, a bunch of Leica cassettes, other "little stuff". Bill had bought a "sack full of old cameras" at an estate auction. The Autocord looked beat to crap, everything else looked like new. Bill called me and offered to sell me the "bunch of old cameras" for $500. I found out later that he was the only bidder with an opening bid of $25. He had no idea of their value and expected me to offer maybe $300 at most.

Unfortunately there are people in the collector category who fail to impress on their family the value of all those old fashioned film cameras. Within an hour I'd swapped the 'blad lens for a CLA on the M2 body plus $600 in cash from my repair guy. The 28 Elmarit I swapped for a nice clean 21/3.4 S.A. with hood, and a cherry M2 body. Whether you're a collector or a user make sure that your family knows its value and how to unload it for top dollar.