ryan00013
Member
I've been really itching to acquire a digital rangefinder for a while, but the finances had not been there. However, I recently swapped from a 5DIII + Canon L lens setup to a Fuji X-Pro 1 & X100s kit. This has left me with enough spare funds to pick up a used Leica M8/M8.2 with a cheap legacy lens or two.
90% of my shooting falls into street photography / documentary category. The Fuji kit currently covers all of my personal and professional needs. The Leica would be for my shooting enjoyment. Using a rangefinder is just plain fun! It's like hitting a target every time you nail focus. Even my Fuji X100s' digital split image focusing is not even close to feeling the same.
The issue though, is that I am concerned with the reliability of a used M8/8.2. I've been doing some reading and have found that if the LCD or sensor fails (which these cameras are somewhat prone to experience) then there are no spare parts available to have them repaired (even from Leica). Other issues that may come up "could" be fixed, but might be pretty costly. I've heard some people say that these issues are overstated and not to worry. On the other side, I've heard people say that they would not buy into dated technology and that the camera could turn into an expensive brick at any moment. I think a real life analysis probably falls somewhere in the middle. But honestly? I have no idea. That's where you come in.
I have enough to buy a Leica M8, but not enough for costly repairs. What do you think?
*note #1 - I am not willing to buy another film camera. (I already own a Yashica Electro 35 film rangefinder).
*note #2 - Camera purchase would not be "just to own a Leica." Like the rest of my gear, I actually plan on covering up all logos with gaffers tape to avoid extra attention and keep it discreet. I simply crave a digital rangefinder shooting experience!
*note #3 - I am not willing to sell my Fuji kit to buy the more expensive M9, M9-P, M-E etc.
90% of my shooting falls into street photography / documentary category. The Fuji kit currently covers all of my personal and professional needs. The Leica would be for my shooting enjoyment. Using a rangefinder is just plain fun! It's like hitting a target every time you nail focus. Even my Fuji X100s' digital split image focusing is not even close to feeling the same.
The issue though, is that I am concerned with the reliability of a used M8/8.2. I've been doing some reading and have found that if the LCD or sensor fails (which these cameras are somewhat prone to experience) then there are no spare parts available to have them repaired (even from Leica). Other issues that may come up "could" be fixed, but might be pretty costly. I've heard some people say that these issues are overstated and not to worry. On the other side, I've heard people say that they would not buy into dated technology and that the camera could turn into an expensive brick at any moment. I think a real life analysis probably falls somewhere in the middle. But honestly? I have no idea. That's where you come in.
I have enough to buy a Leica M8, but not enough for costly repairs. What do you think?
*note #1 - I am not willing to buy another film camera. (I already own a Yashica Electro 35 film rangefinder).
*note #2 - Camera purchase would not be "just to own a Leica." Like the rest of my gear, I actually plan on covering up all logos with gaffers tape to avoid extra attention and keep it discreet. I simply crave a digital rangefinder shooting experience!
*note #3 - I am not willing to sell my Fuji kit to buy the more expensive M9, M9-P, M-E etc.
nandemofoto
Established
There is also Epson R-D1X which falls into your digital RF experience crave : )
kosta_g
Well-known
I take it you aren't using "M8" to mean "mate"?
PineEar
photographer
Everything can fail. If you have the money and really want that experience, buy one. I love mine.
That said, I sold my Epson R-D1 to get my M8 and sometimes I really do miss it. The files straight out of that camera have a wonderful quality. The M8 is generally superior though, even if the files do require a bit of tweaking.
That said, I sold my Epson R-D1 to get my M8 and sometimes I really do miss it. The files straight out of that camera have a wonderful quality. The M8 is generally superior though, even if the files do require a bit of tweaking.
albygentle
Member
go to the m8 shots page and u will see the IQ is not dated. Especially with a nice lens which is more important imo than the body.
The cigarrette issue on lcd i believe was just some models not all, correct me if I am wrong.
You could always buy a leica lens and adapt it to newer technology, but i rather do a m8 or m8.2 if there is one for the price you can afford. I dont believe these had the lcd issue, thhey have also alot of improvements over the m8 such as stupid mode, cosmetic, and 2 meter framelines.
Whatever camera you buy you can use manual only so its not an issue. But leica cameras are very nice compared to the rest.
Ttry to get a good M8 from someone reliable who jist sent it for a CLA. Warranty never hirts. Sure some parts will be discontinued eventually but it is not like it is going to break on you of ypu treat it with care.
I decided to go for a M8.2 and a summilux fle and i am happy with that. The images i take are well worth it, and i know the prices will mantain itself. Even newer cameras do not have the leica look. If you are a good photographer and know how to work with light, you domt need a high ISO. i do not go past 400 in a dark setting.
Just make sure there are no dead pixels on the sensor. A m8u might be cheaper too than the m8.2.
But its all about lenses.
The cigarrette issue on lcd i believe was just some models not all, correct me if I am wrong.
You could always buy a leica lens and adapt it to newer technology, but i rather do a m8 or m8.2 if there is one for the price you can afford. I dont believe these had the lcd issue, thhey have also alot of improvements over the m8 such as stupid mode, cosmetic, and 2 meter framelines.
Whatever camera you buy you can use manual only so its not an issue. But leica cameras are very nice compared to the rest.
Ttry to get a good M8 from someone reliable who jist sent it for a CLA. Warranty never hirts. Sure some parts will be discontinued eventually but it is not like it is going to break on you of ypu treat it with care.
I decided to go for a M8.2 and a summilux fle and i am happy with that. The images i take are well worth it, and i know the prices will mantain itself. Even newer cameras do not have the leica look. If you are a good photographer and know how to work with light, you domt need a high ISO. i do not go past 400 in a dark setting.
Just make sure there are no dead pixels on the sensor. A m8u might be cheaper too than the m8.2.
But its all about lenses.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
As good as the M8 is (I had one) she's an old gal now and IMO doesn't seem to be enduring in the same way the RD-1 has.
Personally I'd be getting an RD-1 because I think in the long term someone will still be repairing these well after all the M8s have become landfill.
Personally I'd be getting an RD-1 because I think in the long term someone will still be repairing these well after all the M8s have become landfill.
albygentle
Member
eventually m9 parts will become scarce as well. so does that mean i shouldn't get a m9 ? if you worry that you ca,era breaks you won't enjoy it. go for something else that is cheap to repair. Leica is expensive.
ryan00013
Member
R-D1x
R-D1x
I've heard of the R-D1, but saw it was produced in 2004 and wrote it off. I didn't see that there was an R-D1x produced in 2009. Either way, I don't know the differences between the two. It looks like I have more research to do.
R-D1x
I've heard of the R-D1, but saw it was produced in 2004 and wrote it off. I didn't see that there was an R-D1x produced in 2009. Either way, I don't know the differences between the two. It looks like I have more research to do.
Duane Pandorf
Well-known
If you want a Leica M8 buy the M8. Down the road you'll be kicking yourself for not doing it.
ryan00013
Member
It's not so much that m8 parts "will become scarce." It's that they already are scarce and in some cases... extinct which renders repair literally impossible (i.e. LCD screen and sensor).
"if you worry that you camera breaks you won't enjoy it."
I wholeheartedly agree with that statement, hence starting this thread lol.
I understand that Leica is expensive. If there were other digital rangefinder alternatives, you can bet I'd check those out too (as I'm about to start with the R-D1).
ryan00013
Member
I want a digital rangefinder. At this point, I've never handled either the M8 or the R-D1 so I don't have much of a preference. Though, I am a bit put off by the R-D1's 6mp sensor, it still seems like it is worth checking into if people are mentioning it here on the forums.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I've had both cameras and definitely prefer the Epson. The slightly larger crop factor of the RD-1 is offset by the Epson's superior high ISO performance IMO.
To my knowledge the only difference with the X is the fixed LCD screen ... the hinged ones are known to give trouble on high milage cameras.
To my knowledge the only difference with the X is the fixed LCD screen ... the hinged ones are known to give trouble on high milage cameras.
Lss
Well-known
It can fail, but so far my M8 hasn't. It has been worth the money.
PineEar
photographer
I enjoy shooting the M8 more than the R-D1. The R-D1 finder was a drag. But I had no complaint with the IQ and as others have said, it actually outperforms the Leica for high ISO and night shots. I wish I had both.
This is a set of all R-D1 photos of mine:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pineear/sets/72157629607725714/
This is a set of all R-D1 photos of mine:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pineear/sets/72157629607725714/
enero
Killer of Threads
Take that money and get yourself some nice glass!
That said...
I LOVE M8's. Ive been through 2. The first I sold of coz I was trying to be sensible. The 2nd I got because I spent a year regretting it. It has magic. Plan and simple. It is 6 year old technology that can kick the ass of a lot of modern digitals in sunlight (its pretty bad in low light, but I think pretty passable up to 1250iso in B&W, half that in color). It renders B&W and Infrared beautifully, and it can shoot some pretty nice color at times as well. What ever you get from it is definitely not boring. It does have its own look and feel to it. But nothing you cant get with a little post work with any camera out there.
It handles wonderfully as well. It weighs a ton though. Which can be good and bad. The weight helps me with slow shutter speeds. I can get good solid shots with it at 1/15 something I cant do with my XPro1. Manual focusing is also a lot easier then with the XP1.
Like Duane said, if you want an M8 get an M8, you really wont regret it. You might feel a little guilty about it. But I'm sure you'll get over it.
I certainly did!
That said...
I LOVE M8's. Ive been through 2. The first I sold of coz I was trying to be sensible. The 2nd I got because I spent a year regretting it. It has magic. Plan and simple. It is 6 year old technology that can kick the ass of a lot of modern digitals in sunlight (its pretty bad in low light, but I think pretty passable up to 1250iso in B&W, half that in color). It renders B&W and Infrared beautifully, and it can shoot some pretty nice color at times as well. What ever you get from it is definitely not boring. It does have its own look and feel to it. But nothing you cant get with a little post work with any camera out there.
It handles wonderfully as well. It weighs a ton though. Which can be good and bad. The weight helps me with slow shutter speeds. I can get good solid shots with it at 1/15 something I cant do with my XPro1. Manual focusing is also a lot easier then with the XP1.
Like Duane said, if you want an M8 get an M8, you really wont regret it. You might feel a little guilty about it. But I'm sure you'll get over it.
I certainly did!
ChrisLivsey
Veteran
The M8 takes pictures every bit as good as when it was introduced. I don't buy into the dated technology thing. Leica have made incremental steps "forward". In commas because the M9 was at most 1 stop probably half a stop "better" at higher iso and the elusive, apparently a very limited edition up to now 240 another perhaps one stop at most. If you are high iso inclined that is relevant, personally I don't care 640 is fine for me. Careful measurements of resolution are required to split their performance and there the monochrome wins, for various technical reasons but again you are going to need top glass and a good tripod to see it. So technically it is still a relevant choice. Anecdotally the M8 is superior for B/W, excepting the MM, perhaps because of the filter issue but personally not having an M9/240 I can't say.
Longevity is the bad side of the coin. Leica screwed up on the parts, partly not their fault, the supplier delivered a bad batch of screens and when they began to fail the planned stock back up was quickly depleted with no direct replacement. Leica failed because they have no records showing which screens went in which serial numbers. So no recall or offer of "compensation" except to individuals when it happens. They also will not say how many are left to fail so it is a gamble. On the plus side they will offer a discount against new, if they have anything they have actually made :angel:, that is no help if you are counting pennies (UK phrase) to buy a S/H one.
The Leica repair bills can quickly exceed any residual value, my M8 takes pictures which at the lower iso exceed my D3 but has faulty LED's now. I shoot manual sunny sixteen so don't care but that kills any resale value.
Even after this time the value is running around 50% of the once new price so not a gift. (The D3 was around 30% of new in mint.)
My bottom line then, you have an itch, scratch it, buy one, preferably upgraded, that will have been checked by Leica at that point, or 8.2. But do so from a dealer with even only a 6 month warranty, for peace of mind. In that time you will then decide to keep it and take the repair risk or re-sell and stand the difference which given the stable market is fairly predictable.
If that price difference is too large for you you have the answer, buy an M2
240 another perhaps one stop at most. If you are high iso inclined that is relevant, personally I don't care 640 is fine for me. Careful measurements of resolution are required to split their performance and there the monochrome wins, for various technical reasons but again you are going to need top glass and a good tripod to see it. So technically it is still a relevant choice. Anecdotally the M8 is superior for B/W, excepting the MM, perhaps because of the filter issue but personally not having an M9/240 I can't say.Longevity is the bad side of the coin. Leica screwed up on the parts, partly not their fault, the supplier delivered a bad batch of screens and when they began to fail the planned stock back up was quickly depleted with no direct replacement. Leica failed because they have no records showing which screens went in which serial numbers. So no recall or offer of "compensation" except to individuals when it happens. They also will not say how many are left to fail so it is a gamble. On the plus side they will offer a discount against new, if they have anything they have actually made :angel:, that is no help if you are counting pennies (UK phrase) to buy a S/H one.
The Leica repair bills can quickly exceed any residual value, my M8 takes pictures which at the lower iso exceed my D3 but has faulty LED's now. I shoot manual sunny sixteen so don't care but that kills any resale value.
Even after this time the value is running around 50% of the once new price so not a gift. (The D3 was around 30% of new in mint.)
My bottom line then, you have an itch, scratch it, buy one, preferably upgraded, that will have been checked by Leica at that point, or 8.2. But do so from a dealer with even only a 6 month warranty, for peace of mind. In that time you will then decide to keep it and take the repair risk or re-sell and stand the difference which given the stable market is fairly predictable.
If that price difference is too large for you you have the answer, buy an M2
Rangefinderfreak
Well-known
I have the M8 and don`t have any worries. I covered the LCD screen with clear tape and a card on top of that so I don`t think I have any issues with the screen. I like to shoot it "taped shut" like I do Film, look at the images when downloading them. I love the way M8 shoots B&W. besides I like the saying: With digitals you look at the image you just made, with analog, you look at images you are going to make. That`s why I hate the LCD screen...
siracusa
Well-known
I recently got an M8, having previously delayed my decision through concerns similar to yours. I half expected that it would arrive and I'd immediately regret my decision or that the camera would fail, but that hasn't been the case and I couldn't be happier. There are newer cameras out there with better image quality, but I'm more than happy with the M8 IQ. At high ISO it's not great, but I've snapped away at 2500 iso and got useable images, and at low iso it is superb. I guess the repair problem stands as a major issue, but I am glad I didn't let it put me off. I have tried a number of digital cameras, but being very rooted in film I found them difficult to adjust to. The M8 just seems very intuitive to me and I find it very comfortable to use. I can switch easily between M2 to M8 without a thought. The RD1, XE1 and XPro1 seem like super alternatives, though of these only the RD1 is a proper rangefinder. After trying the Fujis, the M8 just worked for me personally so I went with it and couldn't be happier. Should something go wrong I may feel differently of course, but I kind of regret not having got it sooner.
albygentle
Member
k.a
Well-known
go for a M8, it's a real enjoyment to use and it's build like a tank!