peter_n
Veteran
I'd go with Roland's recommendation of centering the lens over the ballhead, I use a similar rig to his, with the exception that I've replaced the center column with a Markins base plate for extra rigidity. I also recommend the ClearSight camera plate if you invest in an Arca Swiss type of quick release system (expensive but increasingly useful as you acquire kit!). The grip with the center tripod hole is a good short-term solution as the grip will help on the tripod as well as off it.
It is good to think ahead when buying a tripod, so I'll go a bit against the trend here. When I put together my kit all I had was an M6 and the tripod rig I got was definitely overkill for that. Now my biggest camera is a pretty heavy 617 film panoramic and my original rig handles it with ease. Since you are keen on landscapes a larger format of some kind could well be in your future. When you take a look at whatever piece of kit you fancy make sure you won't have to sell it in a year or two because it can't handle something a bit bigger/heavier.
Tough to say when you have a budget, but quality always lasts longer (and has a lower cost of ownership) than inexpensive. There is a reason Gitzo tripods are considered the best. I bought a used G-1228 from a dealer here in Boston for ½ the new price, it had been well used and looked absolutely terrible. But I dismantled it, cleaned, lubed, replaced all the section sleeves, and put it back together, and it still looked terrible. But it worked like new, and it still does. They are incredible, you get one of these tripods and you never have to buy another.
So it's a bit soggy in England? You should try the north-east US! We've had about 5 weeks of continuous rain here, June was the worst month for rain since records began in 1903. We had 4 inches in eastern Massachusetts one morning last week! The Boston Globe newspaper had plans for you to build your own ark. Last 3 days it hasn't rained so maybe we won't need to do it. That RedSnapper tripod, do those rubber feet unscrew to reveal spikes? Very useful in mucky weather...
It is good to think ahead when buying a tripod, so I'll go a bit against the trend here. When I put together my kit all I had was an M6 and the tripod rig I got was definitely overkill for that. Now my biggest camera is a pretty heavy 617 film panoramic and my original rig handles it with ease. Since you are keen on landscapes a larger format of some kind could well be in your future. When you take a look at whatever piece of kit you fancy make sure you won't have to sell it in a year or two because it can't handle something a bit bigger/heavier.
Tough to say when you have a budget, but quality always lasts longer (and has a lower cost of ownership) than inexpensive. There is a reason Gitzo tripods are considered the best. I bought a used G-1228 from a dealer here in Boston for ½ the new price, it had been well used and looked absolutely terrible. But I dismantled it, cleaned, lubed, replaced all the section sleeves, and put it back together, and it still looked terrible. But it worked like new, and it still does. They are incredible, you get one of these tripods and you never have to buy another.
So it's a bit soggy in England? You should try the north-east US! We've had about 5 weeks of continuous rain here, June was the worst month for rain since records began in 1903. We had 4 inches in eastern Massachusetts one morning last week! The Boston Globe newspaper had plans for you to build your own ark. Last 3 days it hasn't rained so maybe we won't need to do it. That RedSnapper tripod, do those rubber feet unscrew to reveal spikes? Very useful in mucky weather...
Pablito
coco frío
I agree that the Tiltall knockoffs are crap, they may look the same but the secret is in the machining. But the originals, made in NJ, are very old now. Lucky if you can find one on eBay. Leitz-Tiltall at least kept up the quality control though the original orginals are still the smothest and best made.
For landscape work, having the camera centered on the tripod head is not necessary, IMO. I mean it is a tripod, you put the camera where you want and lock it in. For theatrical work or anything more up close centering the camera on the tripod head might be more important. But if you use a grip, most of them offer the center tripod socket anyway. The grip I find essential, for the way my hands are built the camera is not complete without it.
Nokton48
Veteran
You're probably right about the -new- Tiltalls, some guy in China did buy all the original machining jigs, etc and is probably machining then out of softer material. Don't have one, can't comment from experience. My older Star D is just as good as the Leitz, although the plastic handles, etc are not as nice. It's just as solid as my Tiltalls. I have purchased used real Leitz black Tiltalls for as low as $30, and as much as $100 at local dealers and area camera shows. I use them frequently with my Hasselblads (nice and easy to carry, you can even put a strap on it to carry off a shoulder). And equal to Hasselblad quality.
I bought a Manfrotto knockoff from China, called the FAN CIER which is about like a Tiltall, but takes all my Bogen stuff. I think the legs were about $85 as I recall. JUST as nice or maybe better than the real Manfrotto. No difference at all, and works just as well with Leicas. About like the Red Snapper thing.
I bought a Manfrotto knockoff from China, called the FAN CIER which is about like a Tiltall, but takes all my Bogen stuff. I think the legs were about $85 as I recall. JUST as nice or maybe better than the real Manfrotto. No difference at all, and works just as well with Leicas. About like the Red Snapper thing.
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Frank Petronio
Well-known
I don't see the point of adding the expense of centering plates or quick release systems, there is sort of a cult around the Arca-Swiss style releases and ballheads and all it does is piss money away, imho. They are wonderfully made and fun to caress but they won't help you make better photos unless pride of ownership plays a role.
A sub-hundred dollar vintage black Leitz Tiltall tripod is the best value out there, it comes with a head ready to go and it will work will everything up to 4x5 field camera. It also gets tall enough that it isn't a compromise. Be patient and hold out for a mint one, some have had long lives.
However if you can afford a Carbon-fiber tripod they really are more damp and stonger than a comparable size metal tripod. I always thought the largest 25-lb metal Gitzo was the best until I tried a smaller diameter Carbon model -- it was significantly more stable. Gitzos are the best and most expensive, the Chinese knock-offs vary from excellent to sloppy. Gitzo also makes an extremely compact and expensive Carbon travel tripod that I would love to own as a luxury item.
But frankly, if I am going to carry a tripod, I might as carry a larger-format camera too. The Leica is meant to be handheld, and maybe adding a beanbag, a small table-top tripod -- or a folded sweater -- to your travel kit is all you need for loose shooting?
A sub-hundred dollar vintage black Leitz Tiltall tripod is the best value out there, it comes with a head ready to go and it will work will everything up to 4x5 field camera. It also gets tall enough that it isn't a compromise. Be patient and hold out for a mint one, some have had long lives.
However if you can afford a Carbon-fiber tripod they really are more damp and stonger than a comparable size metal tripod. I always thought the largest 25-lb metal Gitzo was the best until I tried a smaller diameter Carbon model -- it was significantly more stable. Gitzos are the best and most expensive, the Chinese knock-offs vary from excellent to sloppy. Gitzo also makes an extremely compact and expensive Carbon travel tripod that I would love to own as a luxury item.
But frankly, if I am going to carry a tripod, I might as carry a larger-format camera too. The Leica is meant to be handheld, and maybe adding a beanbag, a small table-top tripod -- or a folded sweater -- to your travel kit is all you need for loose shooting?
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
After owning a few tripods I decided in favor of the Gitzo G1228 MK2 fibre tripod. Light for travel. For overseas I attach a small ballhead. A smaller tripod is too unstable IMO. I use the tripod's center hook and bungie it to my camera bag for stability in longish exposure or windy conditions.
For closer to home a Tiltall is the best. It is well engineered.
For closer to home a Tiltall is the best. It is well engineered.
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Al Kaplan
Veteran
Get the biggest tripod you can afford and/or carry and the only brand really worth "investing" in is Gitzo. My Gitzo Studex must be close to forty years old, and the wife got the slightly smaller Gitzo Reporter in the divorce. When the twenty-plus year old rubber gripper rings on the leg locks started to dry out and crumble they told me "that never happens!" and promptly sent me a new set no charge.
I also have the little Leitz Table-Top tripod with the small ball head. It's light and it's easy to hold, operate, and carry the camera with the folded tripod still attached. In low light situations you can set it on a table, bookcase, the seat of a kitchen chair, or the floor for a low angle viewpoint. You can also HOLD it pressed against the wall, a tree trunk, even up against the ceiling for a high angle. If you're out and about you can use the top of your automobile as a support. The extra weight makes han held shots steadier ant you can adjust the legs and ball head to press against your chest. Yes that does make for a steadier hold than just your hands.
You don't need a hook to hang your camera bag. Just take a turn of the strap around the base of the center column.
The 135/2.8 Elmarit, first model 90mm f/2 Summicron, and the various Visoflex models give you a nicely centered tripod socket, as does the 280mm f/4.8 and a few other Telyts.
The "American" tripod screw is 1/4 inch X 20 threads per inch. The "European" is 3/8 inch X 20. None are metric.
I also have the little Leitz Table-Top tripod with the small ball head. It's light and it's easy to hold, operate, and carry the camera with the folded tripod still attached. In low light situations you can set it on a table, bookcase, the seat of a kitchen chair, or the floor for a low angle viewpoint. You can also HOLD it pressed against the wall, a tree trunk, even up against the ceiling for a high angle. If you're out and about you can use the top of your automobile as a support. The extra weight makes han held shots steadier ant you can adjust the legs and ball head to press against your chest. Yes that does make for a steadier hold than just your hands.
You don't need a hook to hang your camera bag. Just take a turn of the strap around the base of the center column.
The 135/2.8 Elmarit, first model 90mm f/2 Summicron, and the various Visoflex models give you a nicely centered tripod socket, as does the 280mm f/4.8 and a few other Telyts.
The "American" tripod screw is 1/4 inch X 20 threads per inch. The "European" is 3/8 inch X 20. None are metric.
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Lilserenity
Well-known
It's just as well I knew that tripods and heads would be a minefield of choices of its own!
To qualify this, this week I had a bit of a kick up the arse both personally from myself and others with regard to making some money from photography. Well, long story shortened I recently sold my Mamiya C330F, medium format etc. because I needed the money and my use of it had dwindled and etc. Basically my Canon 70-200mm was to be sold but it was nicked instead bla bla.
So I'm left with 35mm equipment. My 'kick up the arse' was to sell some landscape photos, I am apparently good at it and I like the odd bit that I shoot and so I need to do this properly. I had a couple of choices:
- Reinvest in a medium format camera (was looking at the Mamiya 645 1000S, PDS Prism, etc.) at some point in the future
- Use the Leica and get a tripod + Lee filter system
The former is probably still in the offing but not yet at least as its not just the camera I would need but I would also need at very least a scanner for scanning the slides in, and that would at very least be £350 on top of the camera. Also, I'd still need some ND grads to take the photos I want to, and just general NDs. I'm also not currently geared up to process 120 and I just cannot get on with my Opemus 5 which will take up to 6x6 negs. So, 35mm was the choice.
Now I know it's not perfect, I know only too well that whilst a well exposed frame of Velvia or Ektachrome looks amazing in 35mm, as does PanF and FP4+, medium format will always stand out heads and tails for the larger prints that people do want (say 14x11 and bigger, and definitely 16x12)...
So yes, the tripod will need to be substantial enough for the future when I will re-invest in medium format but at the moment it isn't affordable.
As it stands I'm selling my Canon EOS 3 + 50mm lens because I don't use it anymore and I need money to do this. I've been very good at slowly bringing projects to the boil but now I'm just gonna bite the bullet and do this, put the Lee RF75 system on the credit card (yeah, go wild, not... lol) and really start doing this thing rather than furtively nodding my head that I will.
It's gonna be a long hard slog towards selling even a couple of prints so I better make a start now. Thankfully websites are my profession (well, my day job anyway) so I have the skills at hand to develop a website and store etc. so that's why I've gone with 35mm.
I love my Leica M2, and the results I have had with my Ultron 35mm and Serenar 50mm are more than enough to just do this thing. When I get up to speed and have some income from it, then I can invest in a medium format system and go from there with it.
Basically I'm doing this because I don't want to do my day job for my whole life
As innocuous as a tripod sounds, it's actually quite important.
Of course I might still be trying in 50 years time to crack this but at least I'll have tried. My Milton Keynes project is coming along but I can't go up every weekend and seeing as its so damned beautiful where I live it's a shame to always be plotting what I'll do on my next trip to MK when I could be making good use of my time down here (which I do anyway, really..)
Anyway... And breathe
Vicky
To qualify this, this week I had a bit of a kick up the arse both personally from myself and others with regard to making some money from photography. Well, long story shortened I recently sold my Mamiya C330F, medium format etc. because I needed the money and my use of it had dwindled and etc. Basically my Canon 70-200mm was to be sold but it was nicked instead bla bla.
So I'm left with 35mm equipment. My 'kick up the arse' was to sell some landscape photos, I am apparently good at it and I like the odd bit that I shoot and so I need to do this properly. I had a couple of choices:
- Reinvest in a medium format camera (was looking at the Mamiya 645 1000S, PDS Prism, etc.) at some point in the future
- Use the Leica and get a tripod + Lee filter system
The former is probably still in the offing but not yet at least as its not just the camera I would need but I would also need at very least a scanner for scanning the slides in, and that would at very least be £350 on top of the camera. Also, I'd still need some ND grads to take the photos I want to, and just general NDs. I'm also not currently geared up to process 120 and I just cannot get on with my Opemus 5 which will take up to 6x6 negs. So, 35mm was the choice.
Now I know it's not perfect, I know only too well that whilst a well exposed frame of Velvia or Ektachrome looks amazing in 35mm, as does PanF and FP4+, medium format will always stand out heads and tails for the larger prints that people do want (say 14x11 and bigger, and definitely 16x12)...
So yes, the tripod will need to be substantial enough for the future when I will re-invest in medium format but at the moment it isn't affordable.
As it stands I'm selling my Canon EOS 3 + 50mm lens because I don't use it anymore and I need money to do this. I've been very good at slowly bringing projects to the boil but now I'm just gonna bite the bullet and do this, put the Lee RF75 system on the credit card (yeah, go wild, not... lol) and really start doing this thing rather than furtively nodding my head that I will.
It's gonna be a long hard slog towards selling even a couple of prints so I better make a start now. Thankfully websites are my profession (well, my day job anyway) so I have the skills at hand to develop a website and store etc. so that's why I've gone with 35mm.
I love my Leica M2, and the results I have had with my Ultron 35mm and Serenar 50mm are more than enough to just do this thing. When I get up to speed and have some income from it, then I can invest in a medium format system and go from there with it.
Basically I'm doing this because I don't want to do my day job for my whole life
As innocuous as a tripod sounds, it's actually quite important.Of course I might still be trying in 50 years time to crack this but at least I'll have tried. My Milton Keynes project is coming along but I can't go up every weekend and seeing as its so damned beautiful where I live it's a shame to always be plotting what I'll do on my next trip to MK when I could be making good use of my time down here (which I do anyway, really..)
Anyway... And breathe
Vicky
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
Vicky, you might try to make do with a not too expensive medium weight tripod (the Chinese one, perhaps) and a polarising filter. A good hood becomes all the more important. A cable release too, unless your M2 has a self-timer.
mr_phillip
Well-known
For what it's worth I think my GMP grip (which has a centred hole) cost £20 used. They come up on eBay quite regularly and used specialists like Ffordes and MW Classics get them in from time to time.
Lilserenity
Well-known
I thought I'd update proceedings here and say that I ordered the Redsnapper tripod and 3-way head. 3 years warranty and seeing the item in person pretty much sealed the deal. With the 3 way tripod it was £75 all in and if the head doesn't work out long-term then I haven't blown too much money at all.
I have held off the grip for now as the load weight for the 3-way-head is 6kg and will hold the M2 just fine I am told, and given my M2 weighs less than a 6th of that with a lens, it seems a go-er. (I prefer 3 way panning heads to ball heads for what I do.)
I won't be using it most of the time, just when I am making a special effort to get early morning/evening/night shots.
Vicky
I have held off the grip for now as the load weight for the 3-way-head is 6kg and will hold the M2 just fine I am told, and given my M2 weighs less than a 6th of that with a lens, it seems a go-er. (I prefer 3 way panning heads to ball heads for what I do.)
I won't be using it most of the time, just when I am making a special effort to get early morning/evening/night shots.
Vicky
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Any further advice may be nugatory, seeing you've ordered the tripod, but there are a few points I'd like to throw in anyway.
The first is that I've never felt the need of a cradle to centre the tripod shoe (more weight and expense) and the second is the light lightweight tripod you USE is more useful than the heavyweight tripod you leave at home because it weighs too much.
Frances and I have well over a dozen full-size tripods, before you start on the table-tops, and frankly, weight/mass is grossly overrated. We cheerfully use Slik and Velbon lightweights (1 kg each) with our 35mm RF cameras, and (at a pinch) with Alpas and baby Linhofs. Where, after all, can vibration come from? Once the camera has settled down, a decent camera shouldn't introduce any more vibration.
We always use the lightest tripod we can for a given camera, except in the studio where we use a pillar stand. Sure, the Gandolfi Major tripod (maybe 3 kg) is too insubstantial for the 12x15 inch Gandolfi but it's OK on the CTM (4 kg) and the big Linhof (10 kg) is overkill for anything short of an 8x10 monorail. Anything heavier than a Gitzo Reporter (about 2 kg) for a Leica is pointless masochism.
Vibtation is partly a function of material (for a given mass, carbon fibre and wood are more 'dead' than metal), and very considerably a function of design: wobbly leg-tops are bad, flimsy centre-posts (especially geared centre-posts) are worse, and cheap and nasty pan and tilt heads are worst of all. The fewer the leg sections the better, and centre posts should only be extended with caution. After all, a camera on a tripod is a sort of upside-down pendulum.
Finally, I had an original Tiltall and was completely unimpressed, despite the legends surrounding them. Gitzos and Manfrottos are far better tripods. I've not used the Taiwanese Tiltall but just from handling it, it doesn't seem to be a bad tripod at all. I'd have to give in a couple of decades' use before I gave a useful verdict, though.
Cheers,
Roger
The first is that I've never felt the need of a cradle to centre the tripod shoe (more weight and expense) and the second is the light lightweight tripod you USE is more useful than the heavyweight tripod you leave at home because it weighs too much.
Frances and I have well over a dozen full-size tripods, before you start on the table-tops, and frankly, weight/mass is grossly overrated. We cheerfully use Slik and Velbon lightweights (1 kg each) with our 35mm RF cameras, and (at a pinch) with Alpas and baby Linhofs. Where, after all, can vibration come from? Once the camera has settled down, a decent camera shouldn't introduce any more vibration.
We always use the lightest tripod we can for a given camera, except in the studio where we use a pillar stand. Sure, the Gandolfi Major tripod (maybe 3 kg) is too insubstantial for the 12x15 inch Gandolfi but it's OK on the CTM (4 kg) and the big Linhof (10 kg) is overkill for anything short of an 8x10 monorail. Anything heavier than a Gitzo Reporter (about 2 kg) for a Leica is pointless masochism.
Vibtation is partly a function of material (for a given mass, carbon fibre and wood are more 'dead' than metal), and very considerably a function of design: wobbly leg-tops are bad, flimsy centre-posts (especially geared centre-posts) are worse, and cheap and nasty pan and tilt heads are worst of all. The fewer the leg sections the better, and centre posts should only be extended with caution. After all, a camera on a tripod is a sort of upside-down pendulum.
Finally, I had an original Tiltall and was completely unimpressed, despite the legends surrounding them. Gitzos and Manfrottos are far better tripods. I've not used the Taiwanese Tiltall but just from handling it, it doesn't seem to be a bad tripod at all. I'd have to give in a couple of decades' use before I gave a useful verdict, though.
Cheers,
Roger
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Vincenzo Maielli
Well-known
I solve this problem with the Leica Grip, that have the centered tripod socket.
Ciao.
Vincenzo
Ciao.
Vincenzo
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Two things about the Tiltall:
1. Don't get the bare aluminum one. The aluminum oxide comes off on your hands, leaving them black. Get the black finished one.
2. The Tiltall design places the camera at a high center of gravity. Any looseness of the tilt handle can allow the camera to overbalance and flop forward. It's more of a problem with an SLR with heavy lens. WIth a Leica M it's just something to be aware of.
1. Don't get the bare aluminum one. The aluminum oxide comes off on your hands, leaving them black. Get the black finished one.
2. The Tiltall design places the camera at a high center of gravity. Any looseness of the tilt handle can allow the camera to overbalance and flop forward. It's more of a problem with an SLR with heavy lens. WIth a Leica M it's just something to be aware of.
Lilserenity
Well-known
I got the tripod today
I shall report back on experiences but so far it looks very solid.
The tripod I knew would be fantastic but the 3 way head was a gamble and it looks pretty pucker for the money (about £25!!)
Vicky
I shall report back on experiences but so far it looks very solid.
The tripod I knew would be fantastic but the 3 way head was a gamble and it looks pretty pucker for the money (about £25!!)
Vicky
historicist
Well-known
I don't use a centering plate for my Leica and it is perfectly stable, even with a light ripod and head. I can kinda see the point, but I'd spend the $130 dollars on a better tripod or head first and get one later.
The Gitzo super light tripods are great - I've got a 0541 IIRC which is about 800g legs only, and I've used it with a Hasselblad without problems (though it's obviously not the ideal tripod for big cameras). The only down side is that they don't extend very high, and it is also worth considering getting a heavier tripod just in case you want to use a bigger camera in the future.
The Gitzo super light tripods are great - I've got a 0541 IIRC which is about 800g legs only, and I've used it with a Hasselblad without problems (though it's obviously not the ideal tripod for big cameras). The only down side is that they don't extend very high, and it is also worth considering getting a heavier tripod just in case you want to use a bigger camera in the future.