LWR
All The Gear - No Idea
I've had my M8 for about a week now... I want to love this camera, I've waited so long for it and paid so much, but I'm struggling and considering sending it back...
Am I doing something wrong? Almost every shot I take suffers from the magenta cast problem - any dark fabric (green/blue/black) in anything other than normal outdoor daylight (even natural indoor light is a problem).
See two pictures attached - both with a 21mm Elmarit 2.8 - one taken from my M8 the other my R-D1. Interestingly, it shows that both cameras have a magenta shift - the inner lining of the bag is actually green. But the R-D1 shot is passable and the Leica unusable
. The R-D1 looks like a cast, the Leica looks like a Photoshop effect ! The R-D1 has no post processing, just JPEG conversion from the AWB shot - the Leica has CS2 white balance fixed as the M8 guess was shocking!
I'm getting concerned that I'm going to lose key shots of my family to this M8 and that my R-D1 won't miss a magic moment. While I don't take many shots of my spot-lit camera bag, I do take a lot of shots of my family around the home.
Will firmware 1.10 help any? Or is it a case of going with the IR filters - which I'm not really a fan of.
I went into buying this camera with my eyes open - I don't normally have the visual accuity that most have, so I assumed I wouldn't be upset by the magenta cast - I also read Leica's material about it being rare and others saying it hurts maybe 3% of shots. Not rare and almost every shot is affected for me.
Let me know your thoughts on how I can improve the situation, please
Many thanks,
LWR
Am I doing something wrong? Almost every shot I take suffers from the magenta cast problem - any dark fabric (green/blue/black) in anything other than normal outdoor daylight (even natural indoor light is a problem).
See two pictures attached - both with a 21mm Elmarit 2.8 - one taken from my M8 the other my R-D1. Interestingly, it shows that both cameras have a magenta shift - the inner lining of the bag is actually green. But the R-D1 shot is passable and the Leica unusable
. The R-D1 looks like a cast, the Leica looks like a Photoshop effect ! The R-D1 has no post processing, just JPEG conversion from the AWB shot - the Leica has CS2 white balance fixed as the M8 guess was shocking!I'm getting concerned that I'm going to lose key shots of my family to this M8 and that my R-D1 won't miss a magic moment. While I don't take many shots of my spot-lit camera bag, I do take a lot of shots of my family around the home.
Will firmware 1.10 help any? Or is it a case of going with the IR filters - which I'm not really a fan of.
I went into buying this camera with my eyes open - I don't normally have the visual accuity that most have, so I assumed I wouldn't be upset by the magenta cast - I also read Leica's material about it being rare and others saying it hurts maybe 3% of shots. Not rare and almost every shot is affected for me.
Let me know your thoughts on how I can improve the situation, please
Many thanks,
LWR
Attachments
S
StuartR
Guest
I think the concensus is that if you want to shoot the M8 in color, you are going to need the IR filters for accurate color. Is there a particular reason you don't want to use them? I know that they are not ideal, but they do completely eliminate the magenta problem. The resulting green/cyan shift is only pronounced on 28mm and wider lenses, and even that will be correctable with either coded lenses or hand-coded lenses on firmware 1.10. If you don't want to deal with this, then I guess the M8 is not a good choice...
iml
Well-known
IR filters are the answer. It's not a firmware issue. Up to you to decide if that's a deal killer.
Ian
Ian
HAnkg
Well-known
Using the M8 means using IR filters. There is no way around it and no firmware update or profile will change the IR sensitivity of the sensor. If the idea of using IR filters doesn't work for you, send it back.
barjohn
Established
Having put an IR filter on my 40mm Rokkor I can tell you it fixes the problem and it isn't that big a deal (at least to me it isn't). If after you try it with filters it really bugs you send it back.
willie_901
Veteran
You have five options
Use IR filters, for short focal lengths (~ 25mm or less), use only Leica-coded lenses
Use IR filters and never use any short focal length lenses
Use IR filters, for short focal lengths, use non-Leica, non-coded lenses; remove the cyan/vignetting color errors with third-party post-processing software
Restrict yourself to B&W photography.
Send it back
willie
ps you have my admiration for not being in denial
Use IR filters, for short focal lengths (~ 25mm or less), use only Leica-coded lenses
Use IR filters and never use any short focal length lenses
Use IR filters, for short focal lengths, use non-Leica, non-coded lenses; remove the cyan/vignetting color errors with third-party post-processing software
Restrict yourself to B&W photography.
Send it back
willie
ps you have my admiration for not being in denial
Matthew Runkel
Well-known
As others have said, the only solution is to use the IR cut filters. For those people who normally use a "protective" filter anyway and generally don't rely on other filters, this has not seemed like a deal killer in spite of any extra expenses and delays involved in deploying the required IR cut filters.
After the M8 was released, its IR-sensitivity issue (which is not a "cast" issue) was discovered/publicized by ordinary users. In the ensuing online discussions here and elsewhere, there was a school of thought that the problem could theoretically be fixed (automatically) with software or a firmware upgrade. This view was based on misunderstandings about the nature of the problem and you will not find knowledgeable people saying such things today. Of course it's possible to muck around in Photoshop and improve apparent color fidelity considerably.
If you examine the history of this product and Leica's statements to the market about the IR sensitivity issue, you may be inclined question how forthcoming Leica has been about the problem. As you have found, some of Leica's characterizations have been inaccurate.
The bottom line is whether you are willing to work around or live with the camera's limitations. Every camera has limitations. The M8's just strike some of us as a little weirder than we are used to dealing with (and also, to be fair, inconsistent with the "perfection" ethos Leica has long sold and been well paid for). That doesn't mean the workarounds are inherently more impractical, or not worth pursuing.
After the M8 was released, its IR-sensitivity issue (which is not a "cast" issue) was discovered/publicized by ordinary users. In the ensuing online discussions here and elsewhere, there was a school of thought that the problem could theoretically be fixed (automatically) with software or a firmware upgrade. This view was based on misunderstandings about the nature of the problem and you will not find knowledgeable people saying such things today. Of course it's possible to muck around in Photoshop and improve apparent color fidelity considerably.
If you examine the history of this product and Leica's statements to the market about the IR sensitivity issue, you may be inclined question how forthcoming Leica has been about the problem. As you have found, some of Leica's characterizations have been inaccurate.
The bottom line is whether you are willing to work around or live with the camera's limitations. Every camera has limitations. The M8's just strike some of us as a little weirder than we are used to dealing with (and also, to be fair, inconsistent with the "perfection" ethos Leica has long sold and been well paid for). That doesn't mean the workarounds are inherently more impractical, or not worth pursuing.
POINT OF VIEW
Established
Using your left side sample, I spent one minuet in PS. The results are not perfect but nether is halogen lighting to get near real colors.
http://www.pbase.com/leicalight/temp_edits
http://www.pbase.com/leicalight/temp_edits
LWR
All The Gear - No Idea
POINT OF VIEW said:
Interesting - I've been playing with PS myself - I think one of my issues (aside from IR sensitivity) is that the images need a little more post processing anyway compared to R-D1 images.
Thanks for taking a look at it - my wife thinks that we shouldn't go for limed oak furniture in our library...
Olsen
Well-known
LWR,
First of all; thanks for being so frank an honest about your experiences and thoughts about your M8. You are raising issues that we who have not bought a M8 yet have to adress as well. I am worried about the same as you; what will ordinary 'family' shots look like? - Never mind the colour of a photo bag: Will grandpa's suit look purple, - and make him look like some Hilton doorman? What is the use for such a camera? And value..?
First of all; thanks for being so frank an honest about your experiences and thoughts about your M8. You are raising issues that we who have not bought a M8 yet have to adress as well. I am worried about the same as you; what will ordinary 'family' shots look like? - Never mind the colour of a photo bag: Will grandpa's suit look purple, - and make him look like some Hilton doorman? What is the use for such a camera? And value..?
R
Rich Silfver
Guest
Olsen said:
I thought the answer was mentioned a number of times above - use an IR filter.
R
RML
Guest
Rich Silfver said:
I guess some aren't satisfied with that, for whatever reason. And I can understand that.
Olsen
Well-known
To compare, I have attached a picture of one of my own black camera Lowepro camera bags in this material that is so notorious for reflecting colour cast. The bag is black, as black as it occures to be on this picture, - taken with my Canon 1Ds II and a 24-70 mm zoom - without it's ordinarily worn Hoya Skyfilter (1B) for protection.
The camera was set at ISO1250, F3,5, 1/15 on tripod and the object lit by the ordinary lamps in my livingroom. - I also tried other ISO settings witholut being successful of provoking any 'cast' colour.
- If anyone of you know what I have to do to provoke an IR colour cast with a 1Ds II, please tell me and I will try it out and attach new files here for us all to view.
The camera was set at ISO1250, F3,5, 1/15 on tripod and the object lit by the ordinary lamps in my livingroom. - I also tried other ISO settings witholut being successful of provoking any 'cast' colour.
- If anyone of you know what I have to do to provoke an IR colour cast with a 1Ds II, please tell me and I will try it out and attach new files here for us all to view.
Attachments
Jager
Established
I've actually been surprised how few shots I've taken have been affected by the IR-induced magenta cast. In fact, other than several shots taken in a school auditorium which clearly show the affect, I probably wouldn't have ever suspected the problem if I didn't already know about it. That's been beneficient for me because I've not felt at all compelled to locate any 486 filters in advance of the ones Leica will be shipping to us later this month. Frankly, other than on forums like these, I hardly ever give the IR issue a passing thought.
Sorry it's not worked out quite so well for you, LWR. Anyway, the other posts have already pointed out that, yes, filters will be the only complete and reliable way to eliminate IR-induced color cast on the M8. I'm guessing those filters, when they arrive, will pretty much be a "put 'em on and forget 'em" kind of thing.
I hope it all works out for you. I'm just flat loving mine.
Jeff
Sorry it's not worked out quite so well for you, LWR. Anyway, the other posts have already pointed out that, yes, filters will be the only complete and reliable way to eliminate IR-induced color cast on the M8. I'm guessing those filters, when they arrive, will pretty much be a "put 'em on and forget 'em" kind of thing.
I hope it all works out for you. I'm just flat loving mine.
Jeff
pundit
Established
URL to review that is relevant: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/m8-solution.shtml
Excerpt:
Profiles can not fix the magenta cast problem. But, there is a profiling solution of sorts that will be found to be of value. Jamie Roberts has done the Leica community a real service by creating profiles which do a remarkable job of reducing the magenta cast. They can currently be downloaded here, and you can stay up to date on future developments in this area on the Leica Camera User Forum.
The subject matter here is fairly treated in this review in my opinion.
I have been shooting my M8 without filters, but will seek them out after I see how they work out with the 2 free ones when they arrive if they are indeed effective. In most situations, I have rarely encountered the problem (IR sensitivity issue).
I have seen some exposure issues and more rarely color shift for dark fabrics (not wool, silk etc) but all in all, I am getting good value. I still shoot with my Canon SLRs, but primarily shoot on the street with my M8.
Excerpt:
Profiles can not fix the magenta cast problem. But, there is a profiling solution of sorts that will be found to be of value. Jamie Roberts has done the Leica community a real service by creating profiles which do a remarkable job of reducing the magenta cast. They can currently be downloaded here, and you can stay up to date on future developments in this area on the Leica Camera User Forum.
The subject matter here is fairly treated in this review in my opinion.
I have been shooting my M8 without filters, but will seek them out after I see how they work out with the 2 free ones when they arrive if they are indeed effective. In most situations, I have rarely encountered the problem (IR sensitivity issue).
I have seen some exposure issues and more rarely color shift for dark fabrics (not wool, silk etc) but all in all, I am getting good value. I still shoot with my Canon SLRs, but primarily shoot on the street with my M8.
Richard Marks
Rexel
Personally I am absolutley delighted with this camera, but I did have a very detailed test of the M8 on 2 occasions and shot over 40 pics onto my SD which I took home and analysed before making my decision. The comparison was in terms of the subjects I normally shoot, and comparing it to the film cameras I already had. My dealer has a demo M8 which they are happy to loan out. I shoot a lot of portraits and the skin tones are to me very natural. This more than offsets the Magenta issue, which curiously I seem to have avoided thus far. My advice is try before you buy! Take the M8 away, shoot some pics and spend some time looking at and printing your pictures.
Peter Klein
Well-known
Some thoughts on all this, and no offense intended to the original poster.
It's interesting how much of the negative "buzz" about the M8 has to do with the IR problem. Even though it's old news. The solution--IR cut filters--has been known and demonstrated for a couple of months.
But it's old news only to those of us who have been following certain Internet photo forums. And Leica's statements about the issue being only occasional, and only with synthetic fibers under tungsten illumination, has muddied the waters a bit.
So some people "discover" the issue after they've bought the camera, and are justifiably upset.
Others persist in the digi-centric thinking of our time--that anything can be solved in sofware. So they believe that a new firmware update "should" be right around the corner that will solve the IR issue. They post this belief on the Internet, and others pick it up.
Still others ignore or are ignorant of the design issues caused by the fact that RF lenses are closer to digital sensors than SLR lenses, leading to issues with the more oblique angles the light takes. So they persist in saying that because my (insert brand here) DSLR doesn't have an IR problem, that it's therefore inexcusable that a Leica digital rangefinder has it. This is sort of like saying that since an eagle can fly, it is therefore inexcusable that a penguin can not. After all, they're both birds (cameras), aren't they?
Still another problem is "filter fundamentalism." Some people cling to the notion, which probably started in the 1930s, that filters always degrade image quality, and inevitably turn a Leica lens into a Coca-Cola bottle bottom. That may have been true with uncoated, badly manufactured filters, but it need not be true today except in extreme contra-jour situations.
The reality seems to be that the IR issue is the price we pay to get a digital camera that can deliver much of the resolution of Leica lenses. I've played with some M8 DNG files, and compared them with DSLR files. At low to middle ISOs, the M8 files are a cut above every other DSLR I've seen. The M8's image quality even competes well with the Speed Graphic-sized full-frame Canons, but delivers it at a much lower weight and size, and with the advantages of rangefinder handling and focusing. At 1250 and 2500, there is the old battle between noise on one hand (Leica), and the artificial and sometimes detail-mushing look of noise reduction on the other (Canon). High ISO always involves a trade-off, as it did with film. Pick your poison.
I think Leica could have been a lot more open about the IR issue. They released the camera before it was quite ready. They glossed over the IR issue, and it hit them in the face. Imagine how different it would have been if they'd released the M8 when IR filters were already available, and included two free ones right with the purchase package. Bad on them for all these "wrong" decisions.
But what's done is done. Perhaps some day Leica will be able to design a better IR filter that can deal with oblique light angles without losing image quality, and be made at a reasonable cost. Today, if you want a digital rangefinder optimized for resolution, you use IR filters when shooting color. Just like the users of medium-format backs do. Just like users of early Nikon DSLRs did.
If you don't want to use IR filters, the M8 is not the camera for you, unless you plan to shoot only in black and white. If you accept the filters as a necessary minor annoyance or a non-issue, there are many wonderful images to be made with the M8. There are many wonderful images to be made with current DSLRs, too. Pick the tool of your choice.
--Peter
It's interesting how much of the negative "buzz" about the M8 has to do with the IR problem. Even though it's old news. The solution--IR cut filters--has been known and demonstrated for a couple of months.
But it's old news only to those of us who have been following certain Internet photo forums. And Leica's statements about the issue being only occasional, and only with synthetic fibers under tungsten illumination, has muddied the waters a bit.
So some people "discover" the issue after they've bought the camera, and are justifiably upset.
Others persist in the digi-centric thinking of our time--that anything can be solved in sofware. So they believe that a new firmware update "should" be right around the corner that will solve the IR issue. They post this belief on the Internet, and others pick it up.
Still others ignore or are ignorant of the design issues caused by the fact that RF lenses are closer to digital sensors than SLR lenses, leading to issues with the more oblique angles the light takes. So they persist in saying that because my (insert brand here) DSLR doesn't have an IR problem, that it's therefore inexcusable that a Leica digital rangefinder has it. This is sort of like saying that since an eagle can fly, it is therefore inexcusable that a penguin can not. After all, they're both birds (cameras), aren't they?
Still another problem is "filter fundamentalism." Some people cling to the notion, which probably started in the 1930s, that filters always degrade image quality, and inevitably turn a Leica lens into a Coca-Cola bottle bottom. That may have been true with uncoated, badly manufactured filters, but it need not be true today except in extreme contra-jour situations.
The reality seems to be that the IR issue is the price we pay to get a digital camera that can deliver much of the resolution of Leica lenses. I've played with some M8 DNG files, and compared them with DSLR files. At low to middle ISOs, the M8 files are a cut above every other DSLR I've seen. The M8's image quality even competes well with the Speed Graphic-sized full-frame Canons, but delivers it at a much lower weight and size, and with the advantages of rangefinder handling and focusing. At 1250 and 2500, there is the old battle between noise on one hand (Leica), and the artificial and sometimes detail-mushing look of noise reduction on the other (Canon). High ISO always involves a trade-off, as it did with film. Pick your poison.
I think Leica could have been a lot more open about the IR issue. They released the camera before it was quite ready. They glossed over the IR issue, and it hit them in the face. Imagine how different it would have been if they'd released the M8 when IR filters were already available, and included two free ones right with the purchase package. Bad on them for all these "wrong" decisions.
But what's done is done. Perhaps some day Leica will be able to design a better IR filter that can deal with oblique light angles without losing image quality, and be made at a reasonable cost. Today, if you want a digital rangefinder optimized for resolution, you use IR filters when shooting color. Just like the users of medium-format backs do. Just like users of early Nikon DSLRs did.
If you don't want to use IR filters, the M8 is not the camera for you, unless you plan to shoot only in black and white. If you accept the filters as a necessary minor annoyance or a non-issue, there are many wonderful images to be made with the M8. There are many wonderful images to be made with current DSLRs, too. Pick the tool of your choice.
--Peter
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Olsen
Well-known
Jager said:
Jeff,
Can you tell us about what kind of photos you take? Have you done ordinary family occations with it? Does people's clothes look normal? etc.
kbg32
neo-romanticist
Sorry LWR you have been having problems with your M8. I have been having no problems at all in using the IR Cut filters and correcting additionally in CS2. I am loving this camera. I think a lot of troubles arise from people who are not that digitally savy. I mean no disrespect here. Still, the IR thing puts off some of the most hardened digital users as well. No camera is perfect. The M8 is no point and shoot. I believe that is what most buyers treat it like. I can't blame anyone who thinks they are paying for the best and get less than adequate service in return. This camera just takes a bit more finesse to get out of it and the Leitz lenses, what it can deliver. Sometimes it just takes a little more patience, understanding, and knowledge. For me, developing raw files is just like being in the darkroom.
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S
sreidvt
Guest
To sum things up for newer M8 owners...
1. The M8 is sensitive to IR and essentially requires IR cut filters if one is working in color and wants proper color rendition with all kinds of subject matter in all kinds of lighting. (The R-D1 is also sensitive to IR but to a lesser extent). Registered M8 owners can register with Leica to receive two 486 IR-cut filters for free. They are supposed to ship this month and apparently have begun shipping to owners in Germany.
2. 35 mm and wider lenses, used with the M8, will show cyan drift (red vignetting) when IR-cut filters are mounted on them. This is created when the filter begins to cut not only infrared but also red itself (beyond a certain angle of view). Firmware 1.10 (which is supposed to be ready in February) is supposed to correct for this cyan drift when coded lenses are used with the M8. I've confirmed 35 mm in my own testing.
3. Some photographers (myself) prefer the M8's B&W rendition when no IR-cut filters are used. So they're certainly optional for B&W work.
My sources for the above are my own testing and/or direct contact with Leica.
Cheers,
Sean
1. The M8 is sensitive to IR and essentially requires IR cut filters if one is working in color and wants proper color rendition with all kinds of subject matter in all kinds of lighting. (The R-D1 is also sensitive to IR but to a lesser extent). Registered M8 owners can register with Leica to receive two 486 IR-cut filters for free. They are supposed to ship this month and apparently have begun shipping to owners in Germany.
2. 35 mm and wider lenses, used with the M8, will show cyan drift (red vignetting) when IR-cut filters are mounted on them. This is created when the filter begins to cut not only infrared but also red itself (beyond a certain angle of view). Firmware 1.10 (which is supposed to be ready in February) is supposed to correct for this cyan drift when coded lenses are used with the M8. I've confirmed 35 mm in my own testing.
3. Some photographers (myself) prefer the M8's B&W rendition when no IR-cut filters are used. So they're certainly optional for B&W work.
My sources for the above are my own testing and/or direct contact with Leica.
Cheers,
Sean