Trying to identify real from fake

[Timmyjoe]

Been looking for a Leica IIIC for the past couple of months. Found a number of cameras that I was interested in, but noticed that the engraving on these cameras is not the same. Trying to determine which are "real" Leica's and which are copies. Some are quite obvious, but some are more subtle.

Of the four below, it appears that the second one down may be a fake, but how do you know for sure. The engraving is certainly different, but do we know if Leica changed the engraving or engraved cameras slightly different from batch to batch after the war?

Any and all input on this would be appreciated.

Best,
-Tim

 

[Paul T.]

On quick examination those all look (with the possible exception of 4864, where the VF window isn't visible) good to me, without the normal telltale VF window and shutter buttons.

 

[Jerevan]

All are real. The top one is a IIIc-f (conversion from IIIc to IIIf).

 

[splitimageview]

If you want a IIIc get a stepper. 🙂

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I doubt where are any fake Leicas for after the war models.
Auxiliary mount, and dioptres adjustment.

 

[Jerevan]

If you want a IIIc get a stepper. 🙂

Like Fred Astaire? 😛

 

[FrankS]

None of them are fakes. Fakes are almost always based on FSU cameras with no slow speed dial on the front.

 

[Timmyjoe]

But is anyone noticing how different the engraving is on the second one? DRP is even changed to DBP. And the script for the name Leica is different. Did they just do them differently from time to time? The four cameras are ordered by serial number, with the first being earliest and the last being latest. Just trying to figure out how the engraving changed on the 4864 model.

 

[Jerevan]

Yeah, but these things are normal - they did change things over time.

 

[Timmyjoe]

OK, Thanks everyone.

 

[sevo]

But is anyone noticing how different the engraving is on the second one? DRP is even changed to DBP.

D.R.P. was "Deutsches Reichspatent" - DBP is "Deutsches Bundespatent", the successor introduced when (West) Germany turned into a federal republic in 1949.

And the script for the name Leica is different. Did they just do them differently from time to time?

They sometimes updated their corporate design - the engraving on the second from top is modernized all around. It received a new top cap at some time - experts should be able to figure out when...

 

[aicardi]

But is anyone noticing how different the engraving is on the second one? DRP is even changed to DBP. And the script for the name Leica is different. Did they just do them differently from time to time? The four cameras are ordered by serial number, with the first being earliest and the last being latest. Just trying to figure out how the engraving changed on the 4864 model.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=74442

 

[BillBingham2]

Speaking as a neophyte here, the second one has me questioning. The font on the serial number looks different from the others. Also, the fourth number is off set a bit more. All the other serial numbers, each digit is equally spaced. That leads me to guess that it was not done by the same machine. That said, if this was a replacement Leica could have taken apart the tools they used for putting serial numbers on the top plate for that family, something I have no knowledge or understanding. Just looks hand stamped to me.

B2 (;->

 

[citizen99]

... yet, for 4882 and 5247, which I would assume were later than 4864 (unless built from old parts ?), they reverted from Bundespatent to Reichspatent ?! Curious.

 

[sevo]

Just looks hand stamped to me.

The whole engraving (and accordingly the top cap) is younger than the camera, so the top cap must have been a replacement. Where numbers will have been added to a blank at some service centre (which, other than the factory, probably had no dedicated engravers for that task).

 

[BillBingham2]

The whole engraving (and accordingly the top cap) is younger than the camera, so the top cap must have been a replacement. Where numbers will have been added to a blank at some service centre (which, other than the factory, probably had no dedicated engravers for that task).

Blank top plates given to Service Centers? Possible, but I would expect them to be stamped and sent from the factory when needed.

B2 (;-?

 

[sevo]

... yet, for 4882 and 5247, which I would assume were later than 4864 (unless built from old parts ?), they reverted from Bundespatent to Reichspatent ?! Curious.

DBP was introduced in 1949 when the Federal Republic was founded, but the original DRP patents (including Leitz's) still were managed by the Allies for another two years. As the IIIc was only made until 1951, all original ones used a old (DRP) top cap - the DBP example has been repaired with a new top cap later.

 

[citizen99]

Thank you for the clarification ^ 🙂

 

[xayraa33]

Been looking for a Leica IIIC for the past couple of months. Found a number of cameras that I was interested in, but noticed that the engraving on these cameras is not the same. Trying to determine which are "real" Leica's and which are copies. Some are quite obvious, but some are more subtle.

Of the four below, it appears that the second one down may be a fake, but how do you know for sure. The engraving is certainly different, but do we know if Leica changed the engraving or engraved cameras slightly different from batch to batch after the war?

Any and all input on this would be appreciated.

Best,
-Tim

I find that the "fake Leica" meme is overused.

Truth is that there are very few if any super close copies of the Barnack Leica, and super good ones are rarer and worth more money than a real Leica. Like the British Reid and some Leotax and super rare Japanese copies like the Chiyoca and the Muley and the Melcon and Honor and even some of these are not 100% close replicas.

Most fake Leicas are re-engraved FSU models like the FED and Zorki 1 and have more "tells" that they are just FSU cameras than you can shake a stick at.

Most members of this forum have a fine tuned sense to know what a real Leica camera is, as we been around them long enough in real life.

 

[sevo]

Blank top plates given to Service Centers? Possible, but I would expect them to be stamped and sent from the factory when needed.

B2 (;-?

I doubt that Leitz would have grown much following among pros if their response to the average knocked about camera had been a "sorry Sir, we know that this is supposed to be a professional camera, but the top cap on yours is bent and only Wetzlar may engrave the numbers, so you'll have to wait six weeks for the next boat".