Trying to understand Winogrand.

[Pioneer]

There are good photographers popping up all the time.

Whittner Fabrice is a good example. Also, look up best skate board photographers on Google. You might be surprised what you see!

A lot of street has moved to video. A lot of the up and coming photographers are doing a mix of still and video and if all you are looking at is still photography you are missing out on what is really interesting for a lot of young people.

 

[OurManInTangier]

I am having trouble imagining a cute, blond, 18 year-old girl "toddling" at all. 😀

My own grandson and granddaughter walk around with cameras and come back with very different photographs than I do. Some are very good and some are terrible.

I think that the biggest thing I notice is they are not constrained by any rules. They don't know about the rule of thirds or not to put your horizon in the middle. They don't even seem to care if the picture turns out a bit crooked.

The other thing is they are friendly. They talk to people. They don't seem to sneak around. They walk right up to people and say; "Can I take your picture?": or; "That is a neat dog." They notice what other people are doing or wearing and comment on it.

Whatever it is that they have, I have lost. I would love to find it again. 🙂

That is an excellent point IMO. My best (again, my opinion) pictures come when I'm open, involved and friendly with the people around me. If I'm in a bad or introverted mood I know I don't get anything much. Your vibe is not only noticeable to others but infectious.

There are good photographers popping up all the time.

Whittner Fabrice is a good example. Also, look up best skate board photographers on Google. You might be surprised what you see!

A lot of street has moved to video. A lot of the up and coming photographers are doing a mix of still and video and if all you are looking at is still photography you are missing out on what is really interesting for a lot of young people.

Another good point. There are so many images available from so many sources that finding them is the issue, not whether they exist in the first place.

 

[airfrogusmc]

In some of the examples given above, their most memorable work is from (way) before 2001. I mean, Gilden? Koudelka still shoots, is he what we would call contemporary style - ie 21st century?

And theres plenty of good work being created today. Even by them.

 

[airfrogusmc]

That is an excellent point IMO. My best (again, my opinion) pictures come when I'm open, involved and friendly with the people around me. If I'm in a bad or introverted mood I know I don't get anything much. Your vibe is not only noticeable to others but infectious

Absolutely agree. If you feel comfortable and you are enjoying what you are doing it is infectious. Be nice people and let them see your enthusiasm.

 

[Out to Lunch]

Winogrand lived and breathed photography.

as posted by daveisbest describes the drive and brilliance of the man.

Ned Bojic arrived in the USA 5000 years ago, and knows everything. In black and white.

 

[Colin Corneau]

Street photogs in America now photograph people on their mobile devices, usually they don't seem to mind because they are figuratively somewhere else. Its boring and a little depressing. If you want to experience the streets like it once was here, go back in time via the cities in the developing world, SE Asia (actually mostly developed), Eastern Europe, or South America. That's where humanity is still engaging.

True but only to a point. "Real life" ie. life without having your snout stuck in a cellphone is easier to find outside North America but it's changing fast. I spent a lot of time photographing in Thailand just last month and there's plenty of iPhone-snouting there.
I know it's a reflection of our times but it's godawful seeing people staring at their phones - just ruins a scene IMHO.

 

[airfrogusmc]

as posted by daveisbest describes the drive and brilliance of the man.

Ned Bojic arrived in the USA 5000 years ago, and knows everything. In black and white.

LoL.........

 

[kbg32]

I was just going to say something about what you posted Pioneer, but Simon beat me.

Friendliness, being open, accounts for a great deal. I like to be in the midst of things on the street when I am photographing. Not so much as an observer or, gasp, an intruder, but a participant. I think that's why the situation I recently had with the man I photographed, didn't go any further. I didn't sneak my intentions. He asked, I was straight forward and honest with my answer. I even offered him my card. He didn't take it.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Remember that Winogrand was from Brooklyn, I believe, and was a photojournalist in the '50s into the '60s. That means- an accent. A level of slang and a weird combination of direct and indirect phrasing. And a culture of irony and subterfuge. A lot of what he says simply can't be translated and be expected to make sense. Maybe you can get a Russian translation of Kesey's One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest to get a feel for some common threads of the time?

Thanks for the info. This is what I exactly struggle with in terms of understanding of Winogrand. I could hear every word he is saying, know each word, but it doesn't come together as something which I will get.

 

[uhoh7]

Simon I can tell you first hand 30 years ago was tougher. People are so desensitized to people with cameras today. Like I said earlier you really stuck out when you were taking pictures on the street and I would constantly get approached and asked what are you taking pictures of? Why are you here in this neighborhood? Don't take my picture etc. Usually several times a day and sometimes things would get a bit scary. Now I'm just background noise. I rarely get asked anything. Like I said earlier I could shoot all day and not see another photographer. I can't go 2 blocks now and not see one. People are busy and jsut don't pay attention they way they did unless you go hang out in a park where there's a lot kids with a 300mm lens and a 1DsMkIII then you might have a problem especially if you don't have a kid there or on a beach with the same set up but in the city on the streets my experience is it is a lot easier today.

I agree with para 4 and 5.

Allen, this whole idea of "Happy America" is cracking me up LOL, and the drift: "it was easier back then" to shoot on the street.

There is no doubt America is a very different place today. To shoot street, I take your word is easier, to produce fresh work, with so much still image input, might be harder: I don't know. I read posts about street shooters being confronted, but thats likely cause so much public photography is happening you are going to hear about all aspects more.

We know it's getting harder to make a living; staff photographers are like.....well, a good portion of what was once "middle class", who now find the same work pays a third.

But great thread with many interesting links, despite the ethos which seems to surface sometimes: my quality of judgement is inversely related to how many photographs I respect. Perhaps some have just seen too much 😉

 

[Dan Daniel]

Thanks for the info. This is what I exactly struggle with in terms of understanding of Winogrand. I could hear every word he is saying, know each word, but it doesn't come together as something which I will get.

Yeah, and add on top that most artists aren't really good authorities on what their work means and such. Or even how they go about making the work. I think all of us throw up smoke and mirrors in our own heads about what we are doing.

Look long and hard at the images. What kind of person would take this or that one? And present it? Because despite his claims of not being interested in editing, he made certain enough work got out there to get him the grants and shows and books and such. With his name on it.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Allen, this whole idea of "Happy America" is cracking me up LOL, and the drift: "it was easier back then" to shoot on the street.

There is no doubt America is a very different place today. To shoot street, I take your word is easier, to produce fresh work, with so much still image input, might be harder: I don't know. I read posts about street shooters being confronted, but thats likely cause so much public photography is happening you are going to hear about all aspects more.

We know it's getting harder to make a living; staff photographers are like.....well, a good portion of what was once "middle class", who now find the same work pays a third.

But great thread with many interesting links, despite the ethos which seems to surface sometimes: my quality of judgement is inversely related to how many photographs I respect. Perhaps some have just seen too much 😉

Hey bro,

I think that actual act of creating interesting street work is the same as it always has been. Insanely difficult. My experience is moving around on the streets with camera, especially a small camera and just blending in because everyone has a camera and is out on the streets today makes it easier to move around and not arise suspicion. Doesn't mean I don't get into an occasional confrontation with someone but it is not to the degree it once when there were not many out there. You make a good point that there are so many out there now that why were here so much about issues. If you are out there it is just part of the territory.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Yeah, and add on top that most artists aren't really good authorities on what their work means and such. Or even how they go about making the work. I think all of us throw up smoke and mirrors in our own heads about what we are doing.

Look long and hard at the images. What kind of person would take this or that one? And present it? Because despite his claims of not being interested in editing, he made certain enough work got out there to get him the grants and shows and books and such. With his name on it.

Good point.

 

[kbg32]

In some ways Ned, Davidson was a bit nuts to be photographing in the subway like he did in the early 1980s. The trains and the system were a mess. Everything was graffittied over. No one could see in or out through the windows. The heaters in the winter didn't work. There was no air conditioning. There were ceiling fans and you opened the windows if you could, but someone would usually have propped the end car doors open so the breeze from the moving train would flow through. Muggings were regular part of the daily commute. When you entered a subway car, especially at night, you didn't know what you would find. The city was a lot less populated then. Remember the Guardian Angels??

I used to see Davidson ocaissionally. I knew in talking with him once that it was just a project he was working on for a book. He always had his camera around his neck with a flash. He stuck out. He was robbed twice. After the second time, he always traveled with a bodyguard.

In NYC, not much has changed in Chinatown. Some gentrification, sure. Chinatowns are popping up in other boroughs like Brooklyn and Queens. Little Italy? Now it's a joke. Maybe 2 blocks long. Nothing like it was 30+ years ago. The goombahs and their social clubs are long gone.

I could never really compare what it was like then to what it is like now. The city is a different place. A different experience. I enjoy some of the changes now. It is safer. I have a family, but I do miss the excitement of what it was like living in the East Village then. It was still called the Lower East Side. CBGBs, The Fillmore East, Free Being Records, Leskos, Kiev, the bandshell in Thompkins Square Park, Ginsberg, the old Times Square.... sadly all gone. Seeing Freidlander, Winogrand, Model, Frank on the street...all the galleries... To me, that is and will always be the "classic" New York.

 

[kbg32]

Ko Fe, a lot is lost in translation. Winogrand's pictures should speak for themselves. If you can't hear anything, then maybe they're not for you, and it's ok. There are plenty of other photographers out there to get inspired by. Get a photo history book and do some research. I'm sure you'll find someone that speaks to your sensibilities. It doesn't even have to be a photographer.

The only way to "get" is to do. Go out and shoot more. Make mistakes. Try different things. Experiment. Find out what works for you and what you want to say. Don't rush. It takes time. Once you start and you see some interesting things happen, you'll be happy you're on your journey.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I'm starting to be really irked.

Dear airfrogusmc,

You seem to be comparing your photography and your Street shooting experience of Today versus 30 years ago "when NYC was a Mean place".

First of all, if Davidson was shooting people's feet, Commercial Posters and "in your face" portraits of smiling homeless people to whom he's given a buck, he would have never been attacked nor gotten robbed.

And today's Chinatowns and Little Italys are Tourist Traps in the most classical sense.

If you'd be shooting today the way that Winogrand was shooting in 1964, you wouldn't talking how easy and fun it is. There's a world of difference between his approach and what seems to be your approach, that is shooting a wall and waiting for someone to walk in and walk out as if nothing happened.

No, shooting posters, people's feet and smiling homeless is not compromising and one would easily stay out of trouble with those, even in the New York of the 80's.

It's never been easy and it is fun. That's why I do it. And again your interest in my work is flattering but I really don't care what you think of my work. I know that probably shocks you but this thread is not about my work anyway. So thanks so much for your concern over what and how I work.

 

[Pfreddee]

And I've never read any comments about photos being like pencil drawings, or sketches. Not every sketch turns into a finished piece, and not every photo turns into something that works. Shooting a lot, with film or digital, could be likened to making preliminary sketches, though of course once the picture is taken, it's fixed forever in time and space, unlike a pencil sketch.

I'm not saying that was what Winograd was doing, but I think the comparison is valid.

With best regards,

Pfreddee(Stephen)

 

[airfrogusmc]

The only way to "get" is to do. Go out and shoot more. Make mistakes. Try different things. Experiment. Find out what works for you and what you want to say. Don't rush. It takes time. Once you start and you see some interesting things happen, you'll be happy you're on your journey.

Well said.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Thanks for the info. This is what I exactly struggle with in terms of understanding of Winogrand. I could hear every word he is saying, know each word, but it doesn't come together as something which I will get.

Oh, by the way, I think the Rice University talk video might be a good place to get a feel for his use of language?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP6lP3UaP24

You might be able to watch him switrch intention and tone in his voice, in his use of language. There are times where he is being glib and bombastic, times where he says something 'profound' and then he walks it back down to earth in the next sentence, etc. I think that there are times in this talk where he is being very honest and direct, and times where he is playing at being 'Garry Winogrand,' and times where he expects his irony and such to make his meaning clear (clear to Americans, maybe). Well, just a suggestion of something to watch for its nuances of language, not for its 'truth' value.

Like most photographs, Winogrand and his work does not have one meaning. He is a touchstone in both style and time, though, so whether you like him or not he does reward some attention.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Oh, by the way, I think the Rice University talk video might be a good place to get a feel for his use of language?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP6lP3UaP24
....

I did, few months ago. Whole thing. Having hard time to hear what he was saying.

Ko Fe, a lot is lost in translation. Winogrand's pictures should speak for themselves. If you can't hear anything, then maybe they're not for you, and it's ok. There are plenty of other photographers out there to get inspired by. Get a photo history book and do some research. I'm sure you'll find someone that speaks to your sensibilities. It doesn't even have to be a photographer.

The only way to "get" is to do. Go out and shoot more. Make mistakes. Try different things. Experiment. Find out what works for you and what you want to say. Don't rush. It takes time. Once you start and you see some interesting things happen, you'll be happy you're on your journey.

I didn't started it as "I don't understand Winogrand pictures" ...
Here is something more deep I need to get about him, not something obvious as looking at his pictures.

Do you think I didn't 😉 ?


BBoy. by Kostya Fedot, on Flickr