xwhatsit
Well-known
Medium format is very new to me, only shot a handful of rolls so far on my Rolleicord I and Agfa Record III.
I have a lot of rolls to process from a recent trip to Cambodia and have started souping them.
One thing that is frustrating me so far is that I don't have a 120-sized stainless steel reel. So it's back to the plastic tank with all of the loading hassles. In addition, the amount of developer needed for one roll of 120 is a little excessive. 500mL for 8 shots! To rub salt in the wound, there's about the same amount of film in area as a 36-shot roll of 135.
So I Googled and some people tape two rolls together and load them tail-to-head onto one reel. Jobo even makes a clip for their reels to do this more easily. Unfortunately I use Paterson.
Needless to say after 30 minutes in a changing bag, the film was humid and damp from moisture in the bag and emulsion turning to glue, the masking tape was sticking to everything, and I was very worried about "half moons" from the film getting jammed again and again in the reels. To make matters worse, you can't just roll up the film again into a cartridge, once the backing paper is off it's fairly difficult to keep the film sealed from light once you give up and want to take your hands out of the bag. I chucked the film into the tank in the end and put the lid on.
Another quick Google gave me a tip that sounded ridiculous but I was desperate.
So empty the wardrobe, turn off all the lights, close the door behind me with a bucket of water and the film, reel and tank. Stick reel, film and hands underwater and it loads perfectly! Almost as easy as a stainless steel reel. Rather than using the masking tape, I simply wound the first roll right to the end (much easier underwater), and then wound the next roll in behind it. I was concerned about overlap but after processing there's no sign of it.
Who else loads underwater from time to time? Any pitfalls? One thing that worried me is that wet emulsion is a bit more fragile, and it's difficult to load in a plastic bucket without the film touching the sides. Do you take the backing paper off first, or dunk it in with the film?
An interesting experience. Film doesn't seem to have suffered too badly, but medium format appears to put up with a lot of abuse.
I have a lot of rolls to process from a recent trip to Cambodia and have started souping them.
One thing that is frustrating me so far is that I don't have a 120-sized stainless steel reel. So it's back to the plastic tank with all of the loading hassles. In addition, the amount of developer needed for one roll of 120 is a little excessive. 500mL for 8 shots! To rub salt in the wound, there's about the same amount of film in area as a 36-shot roll of 135.
So I Googled and some people tape two rolls together and load them tail-to-head onto one reel. Jobo even makes a clip for their reels to do this more easily. Unfortunately I use Paterson.
Needless to say after 30 minutes in a changing bag, the film was humid and damp from moisture in the bag and emulsion turning to glue, the masking tape was sticking to everything, and I was very worried about "half moons" from the film getting jammed again and again in the reels. To make matters worse, you can't just roll up the film again into a cartridge, once the backing paper is off it's fairly difficult to keep the film sealed from light once you give up and want to take your hands out of the bag. I chucked the film into the tank in the end and put the lid on.
Another quick Google gave me a tip that sounded ridiculous but I was desperate.
So empty the wardrobe, turn off all the lights, close the door behind me with a bucket of water and the film, reel and tank. Stick reel, film and hands underwater and it loads perfectly! Almost as easy as a stainless steel reel. Rather than using the masking tape, I simply wound the first roll right to the end (much easier underwater), and then wound the next roll in behind it. I was concerned about overlap but after processing there's no sign of it.
Who else loads underwater from time to time? Any pitfalls? One thing that worried me is that wet emulsion is a bit more fragile, and it's difficult to load in a plastic bucket without the film touching the sides. Do you take the backing paper off first, or dunk it in with the film?
An interesting experience. Film doesn't seem to have suffered too badly, but medium format appears to put up with a lot of abuse.
FrankS
Registered User
Never heard of loading film underwater. I'd have the same concern about the emulsion becoming soft and fragile.
B+W chemical costs are quite low. Medium format negs are worth it.
B+W chemical costs are quite low. Medium format negs are worth it.
venchka
Veteran
Double check for light leaks around the door. Otherwise, if it works, do it.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
FrankS is 200% correct: Chemicals are the least expensive item in the total process. Never ever skimp on chemistry. Especially developer.
ps: Every developer has a minimum required amount per 8x10 unit of film. 135-36 & 120 are 8x10 units of film. Using 500ml of developer for 2 rolls of 120 film could exhaust the developer.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
FrankS is 200% correct: Chemicals are the least expensive item in the total process. Never ever skimp on chemistry. Especially developer.
ps: Every developer has a minimum required amount per 8x10 unit of film. 135-36 & 120 are 8x10 units of film. Using 500ml of developer for 2 rolls of 120 film could exhaust the developer.
sig
Well-known
Have never heard about underwater loading before, kind of contradicts the 'plastic reels must be super-dry before loading'.
I always try to put 2 120 films in the reel, just because it is a time saver (even more so considering that the reel must be super-dry before the next run)
I always try to put 2 120 films in the reel, just because it is a time saver (even more so considering that the reel must be super-dry before the next run)
IgalSc
Established
I do it
moreover, I use the same 500ml for developing 2 and sometimes 3 times of 2 rolls of 120mm, just add 1 min for every next development
TareqPhoto
The Survivor
I can load 2 120 films on one reel and i even can do 2 reels at once, but i feel that i may corrupt something by doing this, so i keep myself on safe side and just load/process one film only at once, i can develop separate films because i have 4 tanks, 3 Paterson and one Jobo, oh sorry i mean 5, because i have one stainless steel also.
xwhatsit
Well-known
Bollocks, I use 500mL in a Paterson tank for two rolls of 135. So that's 500mL for two of your units. Given that I use 500mL to cover one 120 spiral, then I'm using exactly the same amount of developer for two of your "units".
Unfortunately in New Zealand, chemistry isn't cheap. Not even close. Around $US10-15 for D76 -- not the 3.8L bag, but the 1L sachet!
I pay the same amount for a roll of 120 that I do for a roll of 135; and given that the area of film I'm developing is the same, why waste developer? Seems very silly and wasteful to pour it down the drain.
Before I discovered this technique I was thinking about building a flat watertight lacquered wooden box as a replacement developing tank. I've seen the old sheet film ones, with the light baffle. Seems a very economical way to do sheet film, why not 120?
Anyway, two rolls of 120 in 500mL is obviously fine and is well documented. What I was really interested in was underwater loading. Certainly is a bit funny in the light of normally trying to keep your reels bone dry! Seems there's no middle ground in terms of moisture
Good point. Although, at night, with all the lights switched off, and the curtains shut to keep the stars and moon out, where will the light come from? I remember hearing about a famous photographer/printer (forgot who it was now) who would wait for the new moon, and do all of his printing in his beachside Hawaii home with the windows and curtains wide open. Sounds like my kind of darkroom!
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biakalt
Long Tran
Thank you for this thread. I just started shooting medium format as well and didnt know you can load 2x120 into the paterson. Neat trick. Hopefully it willsave the chemical a lot, even though im developing with Rodinal - very economical.
tj01
Well-known
Why do you have 8 shots only on a 120 roll ?
xwhatsit
Well-known
Well, I get 12 on my Rolleicord, which takes 6x6cm photos. But I mostly use an old folding camera, an Agfa Record III (I suppose I do prefer rangefinders over reflexes after all), which shoots in the 6x9cm format. Hence only 8 shots. But the 8 shots you get blow you away so much you'll want to throw out your 35mm cameras! The Solinar 4.5/105 is a good one.
sig
Well-known
^ not 6x6 but 6x9
to late
to late
MartinP
Veteran
I have not had the loading problem which you describe - a couple of rolls usually goes in the reel in two minutes or less.
So, a couple of things to try. Soak the reel halves in warm water for an hour then scrub the tracks out with a nail-brush or stiff tooth-brush etc. After that, make a dilute solution of toilet bleach and let the reel halves soak in that overnight, then do the scrubbing thing again plus lots of washing and then dry. That should help a bit but if the tracks have mechanical damage (scratches or gouges in the plastic from earlier cleaning attempts) then there is not much to do for normal loading.
Next would be to try loading the reel in the same wardrobe that you load with the water, except in air. If you don't use a (too small?) changing-bag then your hands will not create the sticky atmosphere that you mentioned.
It is perfectly possible to dilute D76/ID11 at a 1:3 ratio so that would save you some money. Also you can make or buy a turning-base which gives "continuous agitation" to the tank by rotating it against rollers. You will need a non-leaking tank lid for this so try doing the tupperware lid-farting trick on the tank. The rotation action means that you need even less developer as it doesn't have to cover the whole reel - the reel is dunked quicker than every second by the rotation of the tank. As an example, for a jobo tank I have here the volume is halved for 120, compared to inversion. At some point you will end up with too little actual developer though, so check that in the documentation for whatever chemical you end up using.
So, a couple of things to try. Soak the reel halves in warm water for an hour then scrub the tracks out with a nail-brush or stiff tooth-brush etc. After that, make a dilute solution of toilet bleach and let the reel halves soak in that overnight, then do the scrubbing thing again plus lots of washing and then dry. That should help a bit but if the tracks have mechanical damage (scratches or gouges in the plastic from earlier cleaning attempts) then there is not much to do for normal loading.
Next would be to try loading the reel in the same wardrobe that you load with the water, except in air. If you don't use a (too small?) changing-bag then your hands will not create the sticky atmosphere that you mentioned.
It is perfectly possible to dilute D76/ID11 at a 1:3 ratio so that would save you some money. Also you can make or buy a turning-base which gives "continuous agitation" to the tank by rotating it against rollers. You will need a non-leaking tank lid for this so try doing the tupperware lid-farting trick on the tank. The rotation action means that you need even less developer as it doesn't have to cover the whole reel - the reel is dunked quicker than every second by the rotation of the tank. As an example, for a jobo tank I have here the volume is halved for 120, compared to inversion. At some point you will end up with too little actual developer though, so check that in the documentation for whatever chemical you end up using.
fergus
Well-known
If you get the chance to try ADOX 120 film they come in black plastic light-proof containers with flip/snap lids (tethered).
I re-use these containers with my 120 exposed films... one in your changing bag would let you roll the film and get your hands out of the changing bad if you need to.
Monz
Monz
I regularly use 2x120 on a Jobo reel. I had some problems initially but now I load the taped end first for BOTH rolls, remembering to apply the red clip after inserting the first roll as far as it will physically go.
Never tried the underwater method. Also never had problem with 500ml of developer becoming exhausted with just two rolls.
Never tried the underwater method. Also never had problem with 500ml of developer becoming exhausted with just two rolls.
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Sparrow
Veteran
I've loaded 135 onto wet plastic, in a sink, it seems to be damp or an odd drop of water when the trouble starts. However I wouldn't choose to do 120 wet or in a bag for that matter
nikon_sam
Shooter of Film...
If the reels are completely dry I have no problems...I normally load two rolls on one reel...I stopped trying to tape them together a while ago...as long as the first roll is loaded all the way in all is good...