fgianni
Trainee Amateur
Sparrow
Veteran
I nicked it off the radio I think
Beemermark
Veteran
Your government has read 1984, they are not idiots, and they are probably using 1984 as a playbook for absolute power.
It's no better in the US. Under the guise of finical crisis the government wants to triple in size to "save" us.
Ade-oh
Well-known
I hate to pour a bucket of cold water over this particular hysteria fest but I live in the centre of London and routinely carry at least one camera everywhere I go. I have never been stopped, interfered with, questioned or anything else.
Last year, in response to a similar thread, I took a walk through London photographing a number of high security locations, including the headquarters' of MI5 and MI6; 10 Downing Street (including the rear entrances); the Ministry of Defence; New Scotland Yard etc etc. I wasn't stopped or questioned, and actually the policemen at several locations smiled for the camera and posed for me.
The fact is that over the last 40 years there have been a number of serious terrorist attacks in London, some of which might have been foiled had not Londoners done what they often do, and looked the other way when people were behaving oddly or suspiciously.
And Olsen, as for the Met Police being one of the most corrupt police forces in Europe, you must be joking? I don't doubt there are a fair number of corrupt police in London but I can honestly say that none has ever asked me directly for a bribe, unlike policemen I've encountered in Brussels, Paris, Bordeaux, Prague, Athens, Venice, Krakow and Sofia.
Britain isn't perfect but it is nowhere near as bad as some of the frankly infantile posts in this thread are making out.
Last year, in response to a similar thread, I took a walk through London photographing a number of high security locations, including the headquarters' of MI5 and MI6; 10 Downing Street (including the rear entrances); the Ministry of Defence; New Scotland Yard etc etc. I wasn't stopped or questioned, and actually the policemen at several locations smiled for the camera and posed for me.
The fact is that over the last 40 years there have been a number of serious terrorist attacks in London, some of which might have been foiled had not Londoners done what they often do, and looked the other way when people were behaving oddly or suspiciously.
And Olsen, as for the Met Police being one of the most corrupt police forces in Europe, you must be joking? I don't doubt there are a fair number of corrupt police in London but I can honestly say that none has ever asked me directly for a bribe, unlike policemen I've encountered in Brussels, Paris, Bordeaux, Prague, Athens, Venice, Krakow and Sofia.
Britain isn't perfect but it is nowhere near as bad as some of the frankly infantile posts in this thread are making out.
migtex
Don't eXchange Freedom!
Michael Markey
Veteran
There was clarification of these issues on BBC Law in Action program yesterday. They were emphatic that the authorities only had just cause to question if they believed that you were engaged in either criminal or terrorist activity and had no power to confiscate camera or film unless they had a court order.The fact that the program devoted time to these concerns and clarified the legal position would suggest that there are a few issues causing concern at present. The NUJ certainly seem to think so. It is equally clear from Ade -oh that it is by no means inevitable that you will be stopped.
Sparrow
Veteran
This post is corrected for your convenience by : Mini True
you will never know if you don't read the book
Kevin
Rainbow Bridge
Snappers to descend on Scotland Yard
Snappers to descend on Scotland Yard
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/12/pap_the_police/
Another Link:
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=839141
Snappers to descend on Scotland Yard
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/12/pap_the_police/
Another Link:
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=839141
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chibaken
Member
/Passes Ade-oh another bucket of water:
Too many people are working themselves into a state of hysteria about this when in reality the number of people actually stopped and searched are likely to be miniscule compared to the volume of photographers out there. Is this the Daily Mail? How many of you here have been stopped and searched? How many actually live in London? Thought so.
Like Ade, I too live in central London, 15 years now, near the London Eye (allegedly a "notorious" site for police vs photographer conflict), and I've never been stopped. Part of the problem I believe is that some people view the law as having set boundaries that they can, in some cases must, wander through unhindered because the law says so, when in actual fact common sense is the more mature, sensible policy. It's like driving on icy roads ay 60mph; just because the law says you can doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
You have to concede that the police have a tough job, whether you agree that we are under a terrorist threat or not. They have to maintain a fine balance all of the time; so it doesn't help when a camera-wielding amateur-lawyer starts waving his lovingly-laminated, well-worn "UK Photographer Rights" document in front of his face as he set up his tripod up in Parliament Square. There a copper one of the London Flickr forums that gave a view from his perspective - it's very interesting.
What get me most though are the naive conspiracies, Orwellian fantasies, the sarcasm, and plain untruths that often get spouted off in these debates. Most corrupt police force in Europe? The Government using 1984 as a playbook for power? Sources please?
You lot really dearly don't know how good you've got it.
Too many people are working themselves into a state of hysteria about this when in reality the number of people actually stopped and searched are likely to be miniscule compared to the volume of photographers out there. Is this the Daily Mail? How many of you here have been stopped and searched? How many actually live in London? Thought so.
Like Ade, I too live in central London, 15 years now, near the London Eye (allegedly a "notorious" site for police vs photographer conflict), and I've never been stopped. Part of the problem I believe is that some people view the law as having set boundaries that they can, in some cases must, wander through unhindered because the law says so, when in actual fact common sense is the more mature, sensible policy. It's like driving on icy roads ay 60mph; just because the law says you can doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
You have to concede that the police have a tough job, whether you agree that we are under a terrorist threat or not. They have to maintain a fine balance all of the time; so it doesn't help when a camera-wielding amateur-lawyer starts waving his lovingly-laminated, well-worn "UK Photographer Rights" document in front of his face as he set up his tripod up in Parliament Square. There a copper one of the London Flickr forums that gave a view from his perspective - it's very interesting.
What get me most though are the naive conspiracies, Orwellian fantasies, the sarcasm, and plain untruths that often get spouted off in these debates. Most corrupt police force in Europe? The Government using 1984 as a playbook for power? Sources please?
You lot really dearly don't know how good you've got it.
fgianni
Trainee Amateur
Right, we have not one but TWO photographers testifying that they have never been stopped!
It so obviously follows it's all hysteria and all the other photographers in the country can rest assured, of course all the reports of stops and searches and equipment seized are Orwellian fantasies.
I hereby testify that I have never been mugged, and can find at least a dozen other people that can testify the same, so it is obvious that crime does not exist.
Oh please!
It so obviously follows it's all hysteria and all the other photographers in the country can rest assured, of course all the reports of stops and searches and equipment seized are Orwellian fantasies.
I hereby testify that I have never been mugged, and can find at least a dozen other people that can testify the same, so it is obvious that crime does not exist.
Oh please!
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photogdave
Shops local
I don't know about who has been stopped and who hasn't etc. but those poster were sure scary!
skinnyvoice
Imagination OOF
Too many assumptions. I live in central London, photograph regularly for a political journalist and I have been 'stopped' several times and know of many others.
Here is one from 2006
So jail me...
__hh
Well-known
Too many assumptions. I live in central London, photograph regularly for a political journalist and I have been 'stopped' several times and know of many others.
Here is one from 2006
So jail me...
Is that also a video camera mounted on top of that "Gore Street" sign ?
Good shot
Silva Lining
CanoHasseLeica
I live in London, have done for 20 years, during which time, one of my favourite pastimes has been walking around town photographing anything and everything. I have been questioned many times by police and asked not to photograph certain things. If I have been on 'private property', I generally apologies and move on. If not and in a public place I ask the policeman why, usually they come up with a response along the lines of 'anti-terrorism legislation', tell me that they can take my camera etc....all of which we know are wrong. I contest those points to which the usual response is, 'We are here to protect the public... we can arrest you if you don't comply".
Given the fact that I have two young children under 4, a career and a big mortgage to pay, I don't feel that can take the risk (and to be honest don't have the balls) to go through the 'I'm gonna get arrested to prove a point process'. Morally that is wrong, I know, but there are practicalities of life to deal with.....
Given the fact that I have two young children under 4, a career and a big mortgage to pay, I don't feel that can take the risk (and to be honest don't have the balls
) to go through the 'I'm gonna get arrested to prove a point process'. Morally that is wrong, I know, but there are practicalities of life to deal with.....chrismearns
Newbie
Relax people, those are lovely kind eyes looking down on us.
Its puzzling to us, must be bizarre to everyone else. The thing to remember is that alongside this authoritarian streak is amazing levels of liberty protected by the law. Where else can you publish magazines that openly call for the killing of non UK politicians and know that you have free recourse to legal teams to protect your right to do it? When you get these things wrong, you really find yourselves in strange territory - where you can be investigated by the police for things that are trivial beyond belief (one 10 year old calling another 10 year old "gay") while receiving the jailhouse riff raff of another country under EU 'freedom of movement' legislation.
The other thing is that the other guy's surveillance state seems much more sinister than our own. For example the stateside requirement for carrying personal identification combined with the police's right to see it and know who you are and where you live? I think it is doubtful that our CCTV dedicated government will ever get that level of state power over the individual.
Its puzzling to us, must be bizarre to everyone else. The thing to remember is that alongside this authoritarian streak is amazing levels of liberty protected by the law. Where else can you publish magazines that openly call for the killing of non UK politicians and know that you have free recourse to legal teams to protect your right to do it? When you get these things wrong, you really find yourselves in strange territory - where you can be investigated by the police for things that are trivial beyond belief (one 10 year old calling another 10 year old "gay") while receiving the jailhouse riff raff of another country under EU 'freedom of movement' legislation.
The other thing is that the other guy's surveillance state seems much more sinister than our own. For example the stateside requirement for carrying personal identification combined with the police's right to see it and know who you are and where you live? I think it is doubtful that our CCTV dedicated government will ever get that level of state power over the individual.
Olsen
Well-known
You are pointing to an important thing; most western democracies are up for reform. You could also have mentioned 'the media' and how it distorts 'real' democracy. Neither of us in the 'democratic' world should brag too much about it.
Here in Norway we follow these hearings of the Wall Street top brass, - and how they are fooling US tax payers out of their money. Not only US tax payers. a billion or two comes from Norwegian pension funds. We can wave good buy to that money.
We are appalled at the US politicians that are so weak and humble when confronting this bunch of crooks. Why not nationalize the banks? As it is now, it is the bank's shareholders - and CEO's, that will get the profit, while US (and others) tax payers take the fall. Scandal!
Olsen
Well-known
Pritty much all over Europe, - and elsewhere.
I agree on this. Swedish (conservative) government, along ripping their people of state properties, selling it off to friends of the Party for peanuts, and giving the proceeds off as 'lower taxes', has made into law a right of the Swedish Secret police (those who killed Olof Palme) to listen into all 'electronic traffic passing Sweden'. Both Norway and Russia has protested.
I would not bet on that.
skinnyvoice
Imagination OOF
Lets not get too complacent about this, we have *had* amazing levels of liberty protected by law. Innocent until proved guilty? Some recent and forthcoming legislation appears to reverse this assumption. In the UK The new Coroners and Justice bill has dramatic implications on the use of data collection and sharing for yours and my 'protection'. It isn't just photographers freedoms at stake here.
alcaraban
Established
Yes, very unlikely. But I will spend 5 days in London/Cambridge next month and I think my camera(s) will stay at home. Even if there is only one lucky player out of one million, people keep playing for the Euromillions.
Ade-oh
Well-known
Olsen,
I am delighted to have met you - online at least - because you seem to prove the existence of a parallel universe.
I doubt that in the universe that I live in it will prove possible to find the same incorruptible Norwegians, astounded by what has happened in the US.