Uncommon, Rare, and Collector's Delights.

Had to check my more common 223xxxx 8.5cm F2- goes to F22, and uncoated. The original Nikkor 8.5cm F2 only went to F16.
 
Shortly after "Tokyo" changed to "Japan" the Nikkor added click stops and went to F32. The brass is also thicker on the older ones. I have one in S-Mount that goes to F16, my later 'C'ontax lens goes to F32.
 
This thread has lead me to do some archeological research so to speak about some of the Contax lenses I have acquired over the years. This lens, a black and nickel 8.5cm f 4 Triotar, is apparently the second lowest serial number on record for the Contax camera. According to Thiele's book of CZJ lenses, it was part of a batch of 50 lenses completed October 5, 1932.

 
Sonnar Brian said:
Shortly after "Tokyo" changed to "Japan" the Nikkor added click stops and went to F32. The brass is also thicker on the older ones. I have one in S-Mount that goes to F16, my later 'C'ontax lens goes to F32.
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Ya know, I never woulda thought that the older Nikkor would be even heavier than the chrome Contax version I have. That lens feels like a brick hanging off a camera!

Edit: I weighed the Chrome CZJ and Nikkor. The CZJ weighs 600 grams, while the Nikkor weighs a mere 495 grams
 
You have the knack of picking up the first ones!

The Triotar is much better than the reputation would have it. Also typically sells for a premium.
 
Not a particularly rare lens, this one is interesting because of some extra engraving. A black and nickel 13.5cm f 4 Sonnar, engraved "For China" in addition to the usual "Made in Germany". This lens also has engraved Chinese text that translates as "German Made". Someone on RFF translated the Chinese for me about 10 years ago, and explained that it was composed in an old fashion style of characters. Part of a batch of 200 such lenses completed October 23, 1934.




This thread is giving my SmugMug account quite the workout!
 
I'm putting anything that has under 500 made as "extremely rare"...

I welcome any nickel and Black Contax lens here!
 
A post-WW2 oddity, a Zeiss-Opton 85mm f 2, with a strange symbol where the red T formerly appeared. I have seen articles that referred to this as an "F" coating mark, but know one seems to have a definitive answer. I have seen speculation online that this symbol was used during the 1953-1954 period when West German Zeiss and East German Zeiss were engaged in one or more lawsuits concerning copyrights, patents, etc. From lists that I have seen online, this lens was produced in 1953. Also, that is not a scratch in the first picture, but a tiny piece of dog fur. That stuff gets everywhere and sticks to anything.

 
Who was suing who? Jena suing Oberköchen in West German courts? Soviets never much cared about borders, patents, lawsuits or intellectual property. Or rule of Law. Unlike nowadays…😎
 
james.liam said:
Who was suing who? Jena suing Oberköchen in West German courts? Soviets couldn’t care less about borders, patents, lawsuits or intellectual property. Unlike nowaday…😎
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Put yourself back into the 1950s. East Germany has very few avenues to generate hard, foreign currency. One of those avenues is Carl Zeiss Jena. CZJ produces their Sonnars, Tessars, Biotars, etc. and marks them Zeiss, with a red T (after all it was Jena that developed the coating). These are shipped to England, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc. in competition with Zeiss Oberkochen. Zeiss, Oberkochen then sues Jena in England, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc. for copyright infringement. Remember, this s before EU. Every country has its own copyright laws and court systems to enforce them. Every jurisdiction determines its own solution to the problem. As these are all western European courts, Jena loses a string of lawsuits. Each country imposes its own rules controlling how Jena can market its products. This is why, during that period, lenses sold by Jena in the west have a wide variety of different trademarks and logos.
 
newst said:
Put yourself back into the 1950s. East Germany has very few avenues to generate hard, foreign currency. One of those avenues is Carl Zeiss Jena. CZJ produces their Sonnars, Tessars, Biotars, etc. and marks them Zeiss, with a red T (after all it was Jena that developed the coating). These are shipped to England, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc. in competition with Zeiss Oberkochen. Zeiss, Oberkochen then sues Jena in England, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc. for copyright infringement. Remember, this s before EU. Every country has its own copyright laws and court systems to enforce them. Every jurisdiction determines its own solution to the problem. As these are all western European courts, Jena loses a string of lawsuits. Each country imposes its own rules controlling how Jena can market its products. This is why, during that period, lenses sold by Jena in the west have a wide variety of different trademarks and logos.
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Interesting. CZJ was then nothing more than a factory seized by the Soviets and no longer CZJ. I take it that Oberköchen was still run by Zeiss, therefore the patents would have belonged to them despite the changed location.
 
The 'F' coating mark also appears on Opton-Biogon lenses in that early period. It's when the 'T' as well as the "Carl Zeiss" mark were under dispute.
Why 'F'? Well it clearly had been a 'T' before being made into an 'F'-- there aren't many letters in the alphabet that you can turn a 'T' into without having to erase lines, which obviously isn't possible with milled/engraved lettering.

Also I'd strongly debate that the Soviets "just" seized the factory. They got the workers and a lot of the personnel and know-how with it. In fact the production of lenses hardly skipped a beat and a lot of the lenses that are now sold as "war-time" were actually made from war-time parts but under Soviet supervision by Zeiss workers using Zeiss parts before the whole works (including the workers!) got shipped to Krasnogorsk.

There are in fact interviews with surviving ex-Zeiss then-KMZ workers out there on the internet.
It's quite interesting reading.
 
TenEleven said:
The 'F' coating mark also appears on Opton-Biogon lenses in that early period. It's when the 'T' as well as the "Carl Zeiss" mark were under dispute.
Why 'F'? Well it clearly had been a 'T' before being made into an 'F'-- there aren't many letters in the alphabet that you can turn a 'T' into without having to erase lines, which obviously isn't possible with milled/engraved lettering.

Also I'd strongly debate that the Soviets "just" seized the factory. They got the workers and a lot of the personnel and know-how with it. In fact the production of lenses hardly skipped a beat and a lot of the lenses that are now sold as "war-time" were actually made from war-time parts but under Soviet supervision by Zeiss workers using Zeiss parts before the whole works (including the workers!) got shipped to Krasnogorsk.

There are in fact interviews with surviving ex-Zeiss then-KMZ workers out there on the internet.
It's quite interesting reading.
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The 'F' makes sense.

The Soviets took what they wanted, at will. Often at gunpoint. That they 'shipped' a factory along with its workers says it all.
 
TenEleven, I have read an interview about one Zeiss worker taken to the KMZ plant in 1946, was only allowed to return to East Germany after 5 years spent working and training Russian workers. He was originally from a city in West Germany, but was not allowed to go there, Cold War and all.
 
The thread definately got diverted. That said, I have several KMZ J-3s that are stellar performers, and really well made.
 
The J-3s that I have are 1951, 1952 and a couple of 1956. The first lenses called J-3 were introduced in 1950. Prior to 1950 the KMZ factory produced the ZK lenses, which are Russian lenses assembled using glass and other parts taken from Zeiss factories in Germany. The ZK was the Russian abbreviation for "Sonnar Krasnogorsk".

Edit: I have seen ZK lenses with 1950 serial numbers, too. So KMZ made both ZKs and J-3s in 1950
 
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