Unusual 6cm f1.5 Sonnar in LTM chapter 2

[Ernst Dinkla]

After 4 years it is a bit late to reply on the original thread but this could be interesting.

Zeiss made at least one Sonnar lens with a 6cm f/1.5 label in 1939. Which begs the question what the serial number is.

http://www.novacon.com.br/odditycameras/zeissikon2.htm

A Contax Spezial, wider body, wider rangefinder, according the text a concept camera for the Gestapo.

Hartmut Thiele might have mentioned that camera or lens, I do not have his books. He was negative on the possibility that LTM versions were produced. Whether it stayed with one camera/lens produced or possibly more is unclear. If there was glass produced and not used it may be a good explanation for an early post war cottage industry that made these "fakes" based on Zeiss parts. At least a design of a 6cm 1.5 Sonnar existed.

Ernst Dinkla

 

[raid]

I have never seen such a lens for sale. Do you know of anyone who owns a Zeiss 6cm 1.5?

 

[Mackinaw]

The lens in Marc James Small's book is listed as owned by Dr. Randol Hooper in the U.S.A.

Stephen "Head Bartender" might know or heard of him.

Randall Hooper is a camera historian who wrote several articles for LHSA years back.

Jim B.

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

I have never seen such a lens for sale. Do you know of anyone who owns a Zeiss 6cm 1.5?

Not owned by me but a friend's possession. Pictures on my webpages though:

http://www.pigment-print.com/Fotografica/CJZ Sonnar 60 f1.5 LTM/target0.html

From time to time I check whether more is known about the origin and a discussion on the following site gave a link to that Contax Spezial which seems a genuine Zeiss product and by that the first time I have seen a Zeiss 6cm 1.5 Sonnar directly related to a real Zeiss rangefinder.

http://ussrphoto.com/forum/pop_printer_friendly.asp?TOPIC_ID=2308

In discussions on the fake Sonnar LTMs so far I have never seen that camera mentioned.

This does not mean that the body of the "fake" lenses should look like the one on the camera. The main thing is that Zeiss did make a 6cm 1.5 Sonnar rangefinder lens at least once and the possibility that there has been Zeiss glass for more during WWII is less speculative now.

Ernst Dinkla

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

Not owned by me but a friend's possession. Pictures on my webpages though:

http://www.pigment-print.com/Fotografica/CJZ Sonnar 60 f1.5 LTM/target0.html

The lens shown on this website is the same lens that Marc James Small illustrates in his book and it is stated in the book that the owner is Dr.Randol Hooper.

The lens in the lower right corner of the following page is the one Marc James Small once considered genuine while he later declared all of them fake based on Hartmut Thiele's work. Who owns it is another thing.

http://www.pigment-print.com/Fotografica/CJZ Sonnar 60 f1.5 LTM/target1.html

The images surrounding that lens are of the lens I have here and the lens's owner lives in 's Hertogenbosch, The Netherlands, it is neither me or Dr. Hooper.

Links to the older thread;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45497&highlight=Dinkla

Ernst Dinkla

 

[Crazy Fedya]

I happen to own 6cm f/1.5 Sonnar in ltm. I came across one and was able to get it trading in my Hasselblad 500C. Straight trade.
Lens beauty ring says only Sonnar 6cm f/1.5 and serial number 357xxx , which does not seem to be a correct one. Lens was not assembled correctly. I had to disassemble focusing helical and remove rangefinder cam, then reassemble and realign it. While apart, I saw numbers 1407/6 or something like that, stamped on the optical block, which has six slots cut into it. All these things are similar or identical to other lenses, mentioned in other discussions, I was able to find online.
After reassembly and adjustment of rangefinder cam, using aluminum tape and my M4, this lens focuses perfectly wide open at mtf, and also at infinity. Tape left some bumps on the cam, but they are of no consequence.
I have brought this lens to NYC meet-up, and RFF member Stompyq also used it for several shots.

 

[Jacques M.]

Hello,

"1407" is the generic prefix for a 1,5/5,8 "Sonnar" serie of around 500 lenses. As far as I know, they are (all?) in LTM mount. It seems that a batch of glasses were made by Zeiss for the army or the police. The glasses were not officially mounted, and were found again after WW2 and mounted (not by Zeiss).

Some of these lenses are named 1,5/5cm on the beauty ring. They could be in fact 1,5/6cm lenses: it's the case for one of them I own with 1407/ engraved on the rear part of the barrel. As for the serial numbers on the beauty ring, we find different prefixes (1407 again, or others), which depend probably on the workshops who "found" and mounted the glasses.

All these lenses have in common the six slot cut at the back. This one belongs to the family: http://www.ebay.fr/itm/RARE-Carl-ZE...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Of course, no absolute proof for all that. Only the lenses I have seen, and the ones I own.

Jacques.

 

[Jacques M.]

And that one too: http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Carl-Zeiss-S...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

You can see one of the differences inside the serie: this last ones is coupled via a sloped surface unless the previous one which is coupled "normally".

Jacques.

 

[Crazy Fedya]

Some of these lenses have a second helical in rear part of thwe lens to translate movement of optical block to Leica standard. Mine has sloped rangefinder cam that is relatively accurate. It is mine inability to being able to position said cam correctly that resulted in using tape to help calibrate said cam to proper focusing distances.

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

Hello,

"1407" is the generic prefix for a 1,5/5,8 "Sonnar" serie of around 500 lenses. As far as I know, they are (all?) in LTM mount. It seems that a batch of glasses were made by Zeiss for the army or the police. The glasses were not officially mounted, and were found again after WW2 and mounted (not by Zeiss).

Some of these lenses are named 1,5/5cm on the beauty ring. They could be in fact 1,5/6cm lenses: it's the case for one of them I own with 1407/ engraved on the rear part of the barrel. As for the serial numbers on the beauty ring, we find different prefixes (1407 again, or others), which depend probably on the workshops who "found" and mounted the glasses.

All these lenses have in common the six slot cut at the back. This one belongs to the family: http://www.ebay.fr/itm/RARE-Carl-ZE...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Of course, no absolute proof for all that. Only the lenses I have seen, and the ones I own.

Jacques.

The ones with the 50mm 1.5 engraved but not having that focal length have a wider front element than the normal 50 mm Sonnars according someone who measured them.

I think the actual focal length is 58mm for the 6.0 cm labeled ones too. The one I have here measured like that. It has the brass 6 slot cut ring just inside the back. The sloped cam is present too. No compensation helicoil on this one. I do not recall 1407 inside and the serial number on the beauty ring is different. Bells in the glass are present in all the elements its seems.

I think there was mention of a Contax mount on one of them. At least one had an Meopta mount and I have seen it on the Austrian auction site some years ago, probably the one shown here too: http://www.novacon.com.br/odditycameras/Opema.htm

Your description of the origin is plausible, considering the Contax Spezial camera too. I will change my web site page to the latest findings. The one I have here does not have an aluminium body as I thought first, the chrome is quite matte and I thought the glass made the weight. It is however brass overall but I think it has a small alu ring inside if I recall it correctly.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

 

[Jacques M.]

I agree globally with you.

To try to understand, I see 5 identified "series" for these "exotic" Sonnars:
- the1211xxx, marked 1,5/5cm. Too big to be only 5cm. I own one of them which was measured as a 6cm. Mine is marked 1407/ inside.
- the 2407xxx one, marked 1,5/5cm too. They can be real 5cm... I don't have any of them.
- the 1407xxx marked 1,5/5,8cm, with slope or visible helical towards the rangefinder. These lenses are variable in the markings and for the glasses: one of mine is even coated with a red "T"! Two Contax mounts in my data.
- the 1,5/6cm lenses marked 1407x7, or 29140xx or 311xxxx, LTM or Exakta mount. These two last ones should be datable.
- the Sonnarex LTM 194851x.

All these lenses could have in common the 6 slot cut at the rear, as far as I know.

Really complex. Probably these lenses were the result of special researches, before or during the war and found again and mounted after. The serial numbers are of course absolutely non official and cannot be used to date the lenses. Except for some of them which are not registered by Thiele....:bang:

Amitiés. Jacques.

 

[maartenmoerman]

Another one?

https://www.ebay.de/itm/154412011917