Urrg, questions I never wanted to find myself asking

[Merkin]

Hello all,

After having two bad experiences with Leica film cameras a few years back, I swore to myself that I would never buy another Leica. However, I have a project coming up that requires something smallish, lightish, and unobtrusiveish, in digital. The X-Pro 1 just doesn't operate the way that I like to operate, and my D700 kit is just too big, bulky, and heavy. Unfortunately, this leaves Leica as my option. I am considering the following setups, and I would like advice on each of them. I have never followed digital Ms all that closely, so I need to know the possible pitfalls of each. I need to know about potential reliability or compatibility issues, as well as what I can expect from quality, printability, that kind of thing. I shoot black and white exclusively, if that matters.

Option 1: M8 or 8.2 (not sure which would be preferable), Pre-ASPH 35mm Summilux, 90mm f4 Elmar, X100 as backup/low light camera

Option 2: M9, 50mm f1.4 LTM Canon, 90mm f4 Elmar.

These two options fit roughly within the same sort of budgetary area. The M8 kit appeals because of the expanded depth of field that would be provided by the 35mm lens vs the 50 on the M9. The M9 appeals because I could have larger prints made from it, and I have heard of fewer problems with the M9 versus the M8, but I would assume that by now the problems would have gotten ironed out of M8s.

As an aside, does the M8 crop out the barrel distortion on the edges of the 35 1.4 nokton?

Thanks!

 

[thegman]

Why not get the M8 and a less expensive lens? Maybe make the whole purchase a bit less painful? On the plus side, almost all Leica glass will hold it's value very well, less so the digital cameras.

 

[Merkin]

Why not get the M8 and a less expensive lens? Maybe make the whole purchase a bit less painful? On the plus side, almost all Leica glass will hold it's value very well, less so the digital cameras.

That is why I asked about the distortion on the nokton. I listed the summilux because it is a known quantity. With such a low max ISO, I feel like I do need the extra stop of aperture, so slower lenses are out, unfortunately. I couldn't think of any 35mm f1.4 lenses other than the lux and the nokton, off the top of my head.

Also, it isn't the purchase price that makes it painful, it is the feeling like I am walking in to a trap. I have gear to sell that will cover the costs, so it will essentially be a free swap for me.

 

[FrozenInTime]

M9: especially if you ever plan to get wides.
The crop DOF gain is probably neutralized by the better M9 noise so you could stop down more.
New M9s are becoming scarce - so you would need to buy soon, but the grey M-E is plentiful as are used M9s.

 

[Merkin]

M9: especially if you ever plan to get wides.
The crop DOF gain is probably neutralized by the better M9 noise so you could stop down more.
New M9s are becoming scarce - so you would need to buy soon, but the grey M-E is plentiful as are used M9s.

I would be going used in either case. 4 to 5 grand is my budget, as that is what I can get for the gear I am going to sell, plus a little bit that I can put in in addition.

I've never been that much of a wide shooter. 35mm on full frame is about as wide as I ever go, and if I go with the M8 setup, the x100 backup would also do duty as a wide angle shooter.

 

[FrozenInTime]

I would be going used in either case. 4 to 5 grand is my budget, as that is what I can get for the gear I am going to sell, plus a little bit that I can put in in addition.

If you can wait till next spring M9 prices will likely be at a low when the M-240 upgraders sell theirs. M8 prices will also be even lower by then.

Buy a film M ( not sure what your bad experience was ) or X100 to see you through till then ?

 

[Merkin]

If you can wait till next spring M9 prices will likely be at a low when the M-240 upgraders sell theirs. M8 prices will also be even lower by then.

Buy a film M or X100 to see you through till then ?

My project will involve too much travel to make film feasible. Grey M9's seem to be going for about 4k at the moment, so that with a 500 dollar lens falls within my budget. It looks like M8's are below 2k, and M8.2's are under 2.5k now. I'll need to have my kit in place by the end of the year, unfortunately. If I could wait a bit longer, I would.

ETA: I took a trip down to Morelia, Mexico for a month and a half a few years back. Took an M4-P and a CL. Shot over 100 rolls. Had them processed when I got back, only 13 rolls were printable. Both shutters went out of alignment, and the rangefinder went out of alignment on the M4-P as well.

 

[FrozenInTime]

Sounds like having two digital cameras ( redundancy ) is going to be better for you : two M8s !

 

[Godfrey]

My project will involve too much travel to make film feasible. Grey M9's seem to be going for about 4k at the moment, so that with a 500 dollar lens falls within my budget. It looks like M8's are below 2k, and M8.2's are under 2.5k now. I'll need to have my kit in place by the end of the year, unfortunately. If I could wait a bit longer, I would.

ETA: I took a trip down to Morelia, Mexico for a month and a half a few years back. Took an M4-P and a CL. Shot over 100 rolls. Had them processed when I got back, only 13 rolls were printable. Both shutters went out of alignment, and the rangefinder went out of alignment on the M4-P as well.

You are buying/using second-hand cameras. First rule of second-hand cameras: test them extensively before relying upon them, and have them professionally serviced when needed. Film or digital. Whenever I buy a used camera, I immediately run a roll of film or three, or make a thousand exposures if digital, to evaluate them. I usually then have them serviced. As a result, I've never had any of them fail in the field.

I would go with an M9. The older Nokton 50mm/1.5 is superb, you can still find them new. The combination is just terrific.

 

[Out to Lunch]

Or think out of the box and get two second-hand Epson R-d1's bodies. On Ebay, Matsuiya has some on offer.

 

[Merkin]

You are buying/using second-hand cameras. First rule of second-hand cameras: test them extensively before relying upon them, and have them professionally serviced when needed. Film or digital. Whenever I buy a used camera, I immediately run a roll of film or three, or make a thousand exposures if digital, to evaluate them. I usually then have them serviced. As a result, I've never had any of them fail in the field.

I would go with an M9. The older Nokton 50mm/1.5 is superb, you can still find them new. The combination is just terrific.

Definitely. That is why I am going ahead now and starting this process.

With a digital M, do you have to send them back to germany for service?

 

[Merkin]

Or think out of the box and get two second-hand Epson R-d1's bodies. On Ebay, Matsuiya has some on offer.

At the risk of starting a flame war, the Rd1 just doesn't pack enough megapixels. I find myself making a fair number of square crops. If there was anyone else making a digital rangefinder or an OM sized full frame DSLR, I would consider it. As it stands, the Leicas are the only small digital cameras that mesh with my style of shooting.

 

[jsrockit]

As an aside, does the M8 crop out the barrel distortion on the edges of the 35 1.4 nokton?

The focus shift between f/2 and f/4 will be more of an issue on the M8 than any barrel distortion (which can be fixed in pp).

 

[Godfrey]

Definitely. That is why I am going ahead now and starting this process.

With a digital M, do you have to send them back to germany for service?

That depends on what service they might need. For instance, one person bought a used M9 and seems to have a lot of problems with the focusing system ... any good Leica repair and service facility should be able to handle finding the problem, collimating and calibrating the rangefinder. Leica USA should be able to handle everything else (I'd call before sending something in right now as New Jersey was hit very hard by Sandy, but they're inland and in the north, should be up and running again by now, or soon) although some folks send their cameras to Germany as they prefer the service there.

I use my local guy (Fred Mueller of International Camera Technicians) for anything I think is a standard, mechanical repair issue. He'll tell me whether he can handle it with the M9 ... I've vetted with him that he can do most rangefinder and shutter repairs; he can also do logic board replacements, etc. Other things that require extensive and expensive service tools, he sends out to another shop that he trusts, and he warrantees the work. Fred does excellent work. DAG and Sherry Krauter have also worked on my cameras.

Thus far, my M9 (bought last January as a Leica USA certified demo unit) has not needed any service work. It has worked flawlessly with every lens I fit to it and proves a total joy in use. Unlike others, I find that even ISO 2500 can produce satisfactory photos if you expose carefully, keeping in mind the limited
DR at that sensitivity setting and accept that this is not going to be the maximum resolution/minimum noise mode of the camera. I'm glad I went for it instead of an M8.2, although it did cost me a little over $6000. I looked at and decided not to buy several less expensive M9s on the strength of a Leica USA demo's complete inspection/overhaul and 1-year warranty, and I think that was justified.

I also forgot to mention: In addition to the Nokton 50/1.5, I also love using this camera with the M-Rokkor 90/4 (identical in every way other than the bezel and markings to the Elmar-C 90/4), and the Color Skopar 35/2.5. The M9 with these three lenses is a full and compact kit that works brilliantly.

 

[Godfrey]

At the risk of starting a flame war, the Rd1 just doesn't pack enough megapixels. I find myself making a fair number of square crops. If there was anyone else making a digital rangefinder or an OM sized full frame DSLR, I would consider it. As it stands, the Leicas are the only small digital cameras that mesh with my style of shooting.

No flame here ... I like the concept of the R-D1 but when I tried one, I found it somewhat clumsy in use and the images I got from it didn't overcome that negative impression.

I also find myself doing squares a lot (my other favorite cameras (!) are 6x6 film) ... the M9 does that beautifully.

M9 Squares 2012 on Flickr​

 

[splitimageview]

Fuji X-E1. 🙂

 

[Merkin]

Fuji X-E1. 🙂

No dice, I'm afraid. The bulk of my non-portrait shooting is done using scale/hyperfocal focus, which is difficult with the fuji lenses, and precise manual focus is too much of a pain with M lenses. I would basically need two lenses of the same focal length, and that is an aggravation. The X-Pro 1 is the camera that I wish I needed.


Godfrey- Thanks for all of the in depth advice and examples.

 

[splitimageview]

They have a new feature called 'autofocus.' 🙂

Goodl luck!

 

[Merkin]

They have a new feature called 'autofocus.' 🙂

Goodl luck!

I know that 🙂 but the problem there is that I shoot from the hip a lot, and if I am not looking through the viewfinder, I can't be certain that the autofocus grabbed what I wanted it to. Also, autofocus is slow compared to the good ol' f16 hyperfocal distance 🙂

 

[bugmenot]

I know that 🙂 but the problem there is that I shoot from the hip a lot, and if I am not looking through the viewfinder, I can't be certain that the autofocus grabbed what I wanted it to. Also, autofocus is slow compared to the good ol' f16 hyperfocal distance 🙂

If you are shooting from the hip, then a NEX-6 or 7 (or even 5N/5R) would be a good option, given the tilting LCD display, as well as the built-in EVF in 6 and 7, or the optional tilting EVF of the 5N/5R.

Sounds like you just need a Leica because you want a Leica. If you are gonna shoot primarily 35mm, then why not get a NEX-7 with a 50mm or 90mm Leica lens and a Sony RX1 for the Full Frame 35mm experience? 🙂