used 50 summicron-M or new zeiss 50 planar ZM ?

I've owned every optival version of the summicron and also the Planar. let's also throw in the new asph summilux as one of my favorites but after using the planar for a few months now and shooting 50 or so rolls of B&W with it I really like the Planar better than any 50 that I've owned over the years. I even like the Planar vs the new asph summilux and have even thought of selling the summilux but will keep it for the times I need the extra stop. The asph summilux is fantastic but the Planar is a half notch above it in rendition. Both are superb in sharpness even wide open but the tonal rendition of the Planar is the best i've seen. IMO the summicrons suffer from flare when faced with back lighting. The coatings on the Zeiss are so good that it's almost impossible to get flare. I really noticed the flare in the summicron recently while comparing it to the new Nikon 50 1.4 RF lens on the S3-2000. The summicron flares very easily ( late tabbed version). In comparison the Planar is much cleaner and better contrast. The tonality is the classic creamy look but tack sharp to the edges even at f2. Other factors that make the Planar my number one is the focusing ring and little focusing hump. The tab on the standard summilux asph is a pain and gets in the way and the tabbed versions of the summicron are tough for me to use since I hate tabs particularly leicas current ones. The serated focusing ring of the Zeiss lenses is easy to grip and focus and the little focusing hump is there if you want it and easy to work around.

After buying and evaluating the Planar I sold my Summicron.
 
colinh said:
OK, I just have to ask this just once:


Which film, exposed and developed how, which enlarger, which paper, exposed and developed how?

colin

Are you prepared to pay for my divulging of secrets? That XPAN 30 in the classifieds will do the trick😀

The images I print at this size are from those 'perfect' negatives- the times when everything comes together by chance or my attempts to make it happen. More often chance is the reason- despite my best attempts at getting it right. And I am working hard at a new combo of film/developer/dilution now trying to make this happen more.

But here it goes- M7 with 50 Summicron (latest version). FP4+ rated at 125. f8 or 11 as I recall, handheld at about 1/250 or 1/125. B+W 021 light yellow filter, multicoated version. Hood in use.

Negative shot on April 14, 2006. I mention this because the light here is very different at different times of the year- the clear, low humidity days full sun in April is beautiful. Shot in the morning- 10ish? 11 at the latest.
Developed in HC-110b 10 minutes at 70°F. Metal tank & reels. This was likely run in a 4-reel tank, as I show 6 rolls shot in that 2 day period. I agitate by the inversion method- turning the tank upside down and then right side up with a 1/4 to 1/2 turn each way, back and forth. Developer is poured in, no pre-wet, the timer is started and I agitate for 30 seconds, then 5 inversions every 30 seconds. Timer ends, developer gets poured out and then stop bath, fix, rinse, fixer remover, wash & wetting agent. following the standard procedures. I use kodak indicator stop and then Sprint chemistry for the rest. (I don't think the chemistry beyond developer makes any difference, but who knows)

Films are wiped with a Photo-Wipe and air dried.

I print using a LPL Saunders 4500 VC enlarger, with Nikon glass. 1620's are made using the 50/2.8. It is the older version in the metal barrel. I also use a glass carrier for large prints- flatness is even more important as you get bigger.

Paper in this case is Oriental Seagull VC, fiber base, glossy surface. Lately I have been using the Ilford MGWA for some prints. All my proof prints are done on the Ilford MGIV fiber base, glossy.

I do split print, but not always. Most often I will split print in order to preserve a smoother gradation of tones in the whites- one main exposure at grade 1.5 or 2 and a second, very short exposure at full contrast, which on this head seems to be listed at about 5.25. This second exposure serves to set the deepest black tones all the way to a full rich black, something I find necessary in most of my images. There is often little burning and doging in these prints, again these are near perfect negatives to start with- although I almost always will do edge burns of a few seconds all the way around to help contain the image. Much of my work contains vast areas of white with fencing or wires overlapping, these edge burns seem to help give some enclosure to the image, even as the black border does this to some degree.

Prints are developed in a mix of Kodak Dektol and Selectol Soft, often with a touch of Benzotriazole 2% or Potassium Bromide 10% added to tweak color and liven the white tones- thus my lower than 'normal' contrast initial exposure. My development times range from 2 to 4 minutes- with 3 winding up the time for most prints.

I then follow the normal stop, fix, etc, steps. Prints are almost always toned before they are dried, in kodak selenium toner mixed with kodak hypo-clearing agent. My usual dilution is 200ml selenium stock per Liter of HC for the cold toned papers- For the Ilford MGWA I am still working out a final process that fits these images- I'm now leaning towards no toner or a very weak toner without color change, then a Sistan bath. I have printed on the ILMGWA since it came out and like it very much, but these images seem to me to need a colder tone paper. This is what I'm working out these days, in 1114 prints.

I come from a history of printing on graded papers- Seagull G, Portrigia, Brovira, Gallerie. I printed all the 20x24's of my previous project from 810 negatives onto Agfa Insignia (I got the last of that paper through a contact at Agfa), so developer recipies are a big part of my working in the darkroom. In those days that was all there was between Grade 2 and Grade 3, so I made quite a study of it. I've printed with Amidol, with Ultra Black, nearly all the 'big ones'. Amidol is a beautiful developer, but the extra time involved in preparation and the extended developing times (six to nine minutes) has become tiresome as I get older and my stamina for a long printing sessions wanes.

From that long winded tome to some images. I, like Magus, scan from prints, in my case the 810 proofs I spit out 20 or 25 at a time a few mornings or evenings every week.
(pardon the thumbnails, I have no hosting account) The first one is the negative described above- the second is the same film/developer combo with late summer light.
 

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EllitoGuy said:
[FONT=Geneva, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]im sure this question has been asked many times, but i need to make a decision.

which do you get for an m7 (or other m-mount camera), and why?
[/FONT]
I thought this was a thread where you'd have to guess which lens was used: the Summilux or the Planar. Then you ask which lens to get for an M7 and why.

imho, if you need to ask that question in particular for a very specific model of a Leica rangefinder, then it shouldn't matter to you.
 
well gabriel, i only own one specific model of a leica rangefinder, and i wanted to make sure that you all knew it wasnt an m8 as an ideal lens for that might be different... additionally, i know nothing abou the planar, so if it was really an inferior lens to the cron, id like to know that before i spend my money.

therefore, it does matter to me.

Gabriel M.A. said:
I thought this was a thread where you'd have to guess which lens was used: the Summilux or the Planar. Then you ask which lens to get for an M7 and why.

imho, if you need to ask that question in particular for a very specific model of a Leica rangefinder, then it shouldn't matter to you.
 
EllitoGuy said:
well gabriel, i only own one specific model of a leica rangefinder, and i wanted to make sure that you all knew it wasnt an m8 as an ideal lens for that might be different... additionally, i know nothing abou the planar, so if it was really an inferior lens to the cron, id like to know that before i spend my money.

therefore, it does matter to me.

inferior is such a hard term to apply to the zeiss lenses, the build quality maybe, when I held the summicron (a chrome one) I though "damn thats heavy but solid" and when I held the planar I thought pretty much the same thing except I added "what an ugly paint job" (black one). Besides the finer points of built quality, and there is not much in it, the inferiority of the zeiss lens over the summicron may only be 5% difference and with operator error and a dozen and a half other factors wont eve mater. When it comes down to it the big difference its the character of the two lenses.
 
I wonder if the original poster considers the question answered?

In case not, both lenses are very good. One is cheaper. As regards character I guess the only way to tell which you prefer is to try both lenses, and make *big* enlargements (of perfect exposures).

With respect to trying lenses out, I was in a little camera shop fondling a 24mm
Elmarit (and wondering whether to get the ZM 25, at half the price), and the guy said would I like to try it out over the weekend...

@sepia_reverb: Thanks for that answer 🙂 I guess my bodging and durning has more of an effect on my results than choosing a Planar or Summicron.

As it happens, the print I've just made was taken with the summicron (back to the theme 🙂 )

http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/colinh/violinist_3_850_250.jpg.html

But it was taken on HP-5 Plus @ 400, so it's a bit grainy and I don't know what you can tell from a scan (of the negative).

colin
 
colinh said:
I wonder if the original poster considers the question answered?

...

I guess my bodging and durning has more of an effect on my results than choosing a Planar or Summicron.
colin

Have we overwhelmed you EllitoGuy? There is a lot that adds up to that final print, and lens choice is but one of those factors. I do choose my lenses for their sharpness and their contrast, and do lean toward the sharper and contrastier ones as a rule. In my experience I've almost always had better results when softening contrast than in trying to add it (within reason)- that said, certain situations call for a softer or smoother lens. I'm very lucky in that I can have a few 50's around (again, my most used length).

Don't forget about the Konica 50/2.0 when looking at this length. I've been shooting this one with B&W and find it a very nice lens, right up there with the Summicron. It does seem to have less 'edge effect' for lack of a better term- where the summicrons almost seem to intensify the edges of a chain link fence, the hexanon does not, but this is not a criticism- simply a useful difference to have in hand. It has the same type of retractable hood, but a 40.5 filter size- unusual in my kit.

And I've edited my last post as I neglected to mention:
1) the 021 filter on the Summicron- a light yellow one from B&W, multicoated version and
2) the hood was in use.

I find a hood an important part of getting good negatives, and despite the small size of the retractable one on this latest summicron I find I rarely need to hold my hat out there to add some additional shading.
 
bought the planar from popflash, and may i add i called them up after screwing up the online order a little, and my god they were a pleasure to deal with,.... THEY PICKED UP THE PHONE ON THE SECOND RING!!!

very excited...
 
Do let us know how your prints look! I am a big fan of my two Biogons in M mount, and the Contax G 45 has always produced excellent results. I must say I really do love the way the T*'s render color.
 
x-ray said:
......... IMO the summicrons suffer from flare when faced with back lighting. The coatings on the Zeiss are so good that it's almost impossible to get flare. I really noticed the flare in the summicron recently while comparing it to the new Nikon 50 1.4 RF lens on the S3-2000. The summicron flares very easily ( late tabbed version). ..........
After buying and evaluating the Planar I sold my Summicron.

I owned a few ZM lenses and indeed they are consistently very resistant to flare. Very comfortable to use in back light situations.
 
It might be offtopic but I developed (x-tol) roll I shot at night with summilux asph 50 wide open on tri-x, it is fantastic, absolutly excellent! some shots have serious flare problem though 🙁
 
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