Using the 21mm focal length

[SolaresLarrave]

When do you find it useful? How does it work? Could you post some images? I'm on the fence about one, but would like to see what can be done with it.

In other words, show off your super wide-angle shots... if you please, just the 21mm ones.

Thanks a lot!

 

[Anupam]

All shot with the CV Skopar 21/4

-Anupam

 

[mfogiel]

I have just bought recently the C Biogon 21/4.5, and is has been love ay first sight - it is essentially the same lens I've learned to love in the Hasselblad SWC/M, but it is sharper and has lesss flare! It only has the fault of the relatively slow widest aperture, otherwise, I believe, this lens is in a class of its own. It is a superb lens for architecture and interiors, as well as for landscapes, although Jeanloup Sieff made himself famous by using a 21mm lens for shooting fashion !
Here are some first shots made handheld in poor lighting with a 400 ISO film.

these are all shot wide open:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/59177039@N00/1814327117/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/59177039@N00/1815174918/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/59177039@N00/1814892881/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/59177039@N00/1814883543/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/59177039@N00/1815250560/

Even though I wish it were a faster lens, you can shoot it handheld easily at 1/15th, quite normally at 1/8th, and with a very steady hand at 1/4th of a second,

Also go to this group on flickr: http://www.flickr.com/groups/m-mount/ and look through the examples, Tom Abrahamsson hs been very prolific with posting his results there.

 

[Tom A]

I find that the 21mm focal length is my second most used lens, after the 35. It takes a while to get concersant with it and initially there is a lot of "wideitis" shooting. Ant sized people and tilting buildings!
There are s stupendeous amount of 21's around. I can still remember when the only M-offering was the 21/3,4 Super Angulon or a Contax 21/4,5 Biogon. Today you have CV's 21/4 LTM and M-mount. Zeiss 21/4,5 and f2.8, Leicas 21/2,8 Asph. as well as Kobaluv 21/2,8 and a variety of others. If it is your first foray into wide's - get the 21/4 VC in LTM mount with the finder. They are out of production but still available either in Classified's or E-bay. This is a very good lens, virtually no distortion and though f4 that is not normally a problem as you can handhold a 21 at slow speeds, even 1/4 sec if you stay off coffee for a while.
What is interesting with the wides is that you can to some extent, depopulate spaces. The extreme angle tend to make people less important and surroundings more dominant. You also learn quickly to look at the foreground as an important part of the image (and to hold the camera straight! I am still working on that!).
As for recommendations: For reasonable cost, go for the VC 21, either the LTM (less money and comes with a finder) or the P-mount (added cost of the finder),
A bit more (almost double the VC), is the 21/4.5 Biogon ZM. This one has become my benchmark for 21mm lenses. As good as it gets! The 21/2,8 is just about the same price and no slouch, but considerably bigger and clumsy.
Money no object, the 21f2.8 Asph Elmarit. Big, heavy and very sharp but in reality not better than the ZM offerings and the tiny 21/4 VC has less distorsion as has the 21/4,5 ZM. The Leica finder now come as a 21/24/28 version and it is crap! The 24 setting is OK, but both the 21/28 settings are pathetic (for the price). Either stick with the VC finder (very good) or the Zeiss ZM finder (the best there is, pricey but worth it).
Spend aome time on Flickr, just type in 21mm on the tags and there is about 450 shots there. This will give you a good look at what the that focal length can do and you can draw your own conclusions as to wether it will fit your style of shooting.

 

[nico]

Ciao Francisco,
I bought a CV 21 last year and I use it more and more. Now I feel it perfectly complements my CV 50. Besides the "typical" use I discovered it is a very good lens for environmental portrait too.
Here some links to photos of mine I posted in the gallery; not very good, but I hope they can help:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=72039&ppuser=5152

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=71664&ppuser=5152

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=67060

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=66269

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=67612

and some more in my blog (see signature).
Ciao 🙂

 

[thomasw_]

ah erik, why did you sell your zm 21/2,8? such fine shots.... 🙂 tbh, the next wide i go for will be the zm 18/4....it looks to continue the fine rendering of the zm line. i saw some of tom a.'s shots.

 

[SolaresLarrave]

Thanks a lot, folks! 🙂 I was thinking I might not like the focal length because it took me forever to find some use for the Elmarit 28 I have. Given the quality and type of photographs that can be done with this one, I may go for it.

One silly question: I know Tom said there's no distortion, and I don't see any in most of your shots. Do you guys still get it on ocassion?

Thanks! 🙂

 

[nico]

Thanks a lot, folks! 🙂 I was thinking I might not like the focal length because it took me forever to find some use for the Elmarit 28 I have.

I also have a Orion 15 (28mm) but I far prefer the 21CV, it's a completely different focal lens. As you i have some difficulties to find a use to the 28mm (even because the Orion is very slow f/6 max aperture...).
Anyway, if I want a normal lens I have and love my 50mm but if I have to go wide I use the CV21.
Ciao 🙂

 

[Tom A]

One silly question: I know Tom said there's no distortion, and I don't see any in most of your shots. Do you guys still get it on ocassion?

Thanks! 🙂[/QUOTE]

If you hold the camera straight, most 21 will do a good job. The faster ones, 21/2,8 Leica, ZM and to some extent the 21/3,4 SA will have barrel distorsion (straight lines at the edge of the shot will curve slightly. The 21/4 VC and the 21/4,5 ZM has less of this. It really does not affect the image, unless you are shooting architectural or industrial work though.
If you tilt the camera you get "falling buildings" and distorsion from that. You will get that with any lens, except that with a wider lens it is far more pronounced.
For "perfect" shots, you really need a tripod and a bubble level and that makes it a clumsy. If you know how (i dont) you can correct some of this in Photoshop of course.
If you already have the 28, I think that I will look at the 18/4 Distagon as a lens that complements it. The 7mm focal length difference between the 28 and the 21 is dramatic, but not to the same extent as the 18 would be.
Wide angles do have a steep learning curve though, so give yourself time with it and shoot a lot.

 

[mfogiel]

If you look up the "four palms" shot from my previous post, you will see that the round tables near the corners have become eliptical - this is the kind of distorsion you cannot avoid, however, in case of this lens, the declared distorsion is 0.15%, which means, that if you shoot a square grid, and make a print 1 meter high, you will have a deviation in the middle of it, of 1.5 millimeters from the ideal straight line - this is not noticeable in case of any normal subject, the real distorsions you have to take care of, are these regarding the vericals of tall subjects - as observed by Tom, and also these regarding the near-far perspective: if you shoot a portrait from 50cm. the face will be all but pretty...

 

[Michiel Fokkema]

Cheers,

Michiel Fokkema

 

[rodneyAB]

I've been thinking about this Focal length for some time. All good shots posted above.
Question on the C Biogon 4.5, is there a specific zeiss lens hood for this, or does the lens hood for the 2.8 fit?

 

[Tom A]

You can use the 21/2.8 lenshood, but it does intrude in the viewfinder quite a bit. I use the hood from my 25/2,8 and it is far more discreet. I also tried my 28f2.8 hood and could notice no vignetting until I realized that it is marked 25/28. Goes to prove a point - always read the small print, at least on the flange of the lenshoods! Some days are we are brighter than others!

 

[RichardB]

I'm looking for a 21 ASPH and since I use Kodachrome a lot indoors, I will have to get an off camera flash as i will have to mount the 21mm finder. Only negative for me about using a 21 on an M.
The use of a 24mm Nikkor on F's has taught me the need to have the film plane parallel to the plane of you picture or distortion will reslut. One of the nice things about a SLR is being able to view that distortion. Does the 21mm Finder show that type of perspective? -Dick

 

[Tom A]

Dick, most finders will have some distorsion. The Zeiss finder are probably the best at the moment, but you always have to consider things like parallax and coverage when using external finders.
For ultra precise shooting with wide angles, nothing beats SLR, though they tend to be a bit clumsy and if you want it perfect, you will have to go to view cameras (and no K-chrome for 4x5 anymore!).
The finder on a rangefinder is at best a guideline only. Experience will soon teach you what coverage you have at close, intermediate and infinity distances.

 

[nksyoon]

 

[borismach]

I find that the 21mm focal length is my second most used lens, after the 35. It takes a while to get concersant with it and initially there is a lot of "wideitis" shooting. Ant sized people and tilting buildings!
There are s stupendeous amount of 21's around. I can still remember when the only M-offering was the 21/3,4 Super Angulon or a Contax 21/4,5 Biogon. Today you have CV's 21/4 LTM and M-mount. Zeiss 21/4,5 and f2.8, Leicas 21/2,8 Asph. as well as Kobaluv 21/2,8 and a variety of others. If it is your first foray into wide's - get the 21/4 VC in LTM mount with the finder. They are out of production but still available either in Classified's or E-bay. This is a very good lens, virtually no distortion and though f4 that is not normally a problem as you can handhold a 21 at slow speeds, even 1/4 sec if you stay off coffee for a while.
What is interesting with the wides is that you can to some extent, depopulate spaces. The extreme angle tend to make people less important and surroundings more dominant. You also learn quickly to look at the foreground as an important part of the image (and to hold the camera straight! I am still working on that!).
As for recommendations: For reasonable cost, go for the VC 21, either the LTM (less money and comes with a finder) or the P-mount (added cost of the finder),
A bit more (almost double the VC), is the 21/4.5 Biogon ZM. This one has become my benchmark for 21mm lenses. As good as it gets! The 21/2,8 is just about the same price and no slouch, but considerably bigger and clumsy.
Money no object, the 21f2.8 Asph Elmarit. Big, heavy and very sharp but in reality not better than the ZM offerings and the tiny 21/4 VC has less distorsion as has the 21/4,5 ZM. The Leica finder now come as a 21/24/28 version and it is crap! The 24 setting is OK, but both the 21/28 settings are pathetic (for the price). Either stick with the VC finder (very good) or the Zeiss ZM finder (the best there is, pricey but worth it).
Spend aome time on Flickr, just type in 21mm on the tags and there is about 450 shots there. This will give you a good look at what the that focal length can do and you can draw your own conclusions as to wether it will fit your style of shooting.

Hi, Tom,

Do you recommend a 21/3.4? I'm using VC 21/4, which I find it already very good in terms of distortion control, sharpness, resolution...but maybe my GAS acquired in these type of forum caused me to think of the legendary 21/3.4. I really cost a lot! Should I spend money on it, or there is not much more to get as compared to my VC 21?

Thanks for your advice in advance.

🙂 bm

 

[oscroft]

Here's a few recent shots from my CV 21/4 (on an R4A)

 

[oscroft]

and three more

 

[Tom A]

Boris, if you already have the 21/4 VC you are doing well. The 21f3,4 is more of an artifact of times long gone by! It was THE Leica 21 for many decades and its fame is to same extent due to the lack of competition! It is a very good lens, but the design goes back to the early 60's and it shows in the vignetting and slightly soft corners wide open. Modern wide angles are better performers as a rule and, in the case of the VC lenses, also much more compact.
The center sharpness of the 21/3,4 is still outstanding and it does have its own "signature" in images. It is also hovering on that fine line between being a coveted user lens and a collectible lens. This means that they are over-priced, compared to the VC and ZM lenses. The deep-set rear element also scrambles your meter in the M6/MP and, though you can use it on a M8 (only in "manual" mode), the newer offerings makes much more sense.
Having said all of that - I am still keeping mine (a very late 1979-80 version) as there are days when you get nostalgic and want to drift back to the classic style of the 60/70's. A couple of M2's, the 21/3,4, an early Summilux 35 and the 50 Summicron (and if you feel strong enough, the 90f2 Big Bertha). These lenses, couple with Tri X and D76 will say 1960's all the way.
Look at the shots by Jean Loup Sieff, he was a master of using the 21/3,4 and combining it with Tri X and home made D76. He was alaso a Master printer in his own right. I had the pleasure of meeting him many times when we lived in Paris in 82/83. We often had breakfast at Cafe de Flore and talked cars and french politics, as well as photography and cameras.