Very Basic Film Question

[amyukie]

Fotohuis, thanks for the input. I will try again with 1:50 dilution and less agitation as you said. Will post pictures afterwards.

BobYil, thanks! I took them with Arista Prem 400. I haven't tried the HP5+ because it's more expensive, I thought I just used the cheaper films for experimenting. will definitely try to learn pushing 1-2 stops before shooting big events 🙂

NLewis, that what I was thinking. Now I get better reason to get HC-110. Rodinal is nice and classic but I don't know if it suits every situation. Heading to FreeStyle right now 🙂

 

[Fotohuis]

For standard type development better not use Rodinal for 400 ISO films

And certainly not in 35mm format.

My limit is iso 200, see above examples and with less agitation you can lower the grain by almost 50%.
Summurized for Rodinal:
Less agitation = less grain
Higher dilution = sharper and less contrast
Higher temperature = quicker and more grain

1+50 (18C-20C) is a very good starting point for most films.

For high speed films (iso 400 and up) and push processing I can also recommend HC-110. But to handle the thick sirup you need a long thin syringe to make the dilutions directly from the concentrate.

Another tip, stay with two type developers and two type B&W films otherwise you have too many parameters to optimize a film development.

Best regards,

Robert

 

[BobYIL]

...... stay with two type developers and two type B&W films otherwise you have too many parameters to optimize a film development.

Best regards,

Robert

amyukie: A golden advise not only for beginners but for almost all of us.. For instance, two films, one low- the other one hi-ISO (Acros and HP5+ for me) can cover almost all situations. Especially sticking to one or two developers functions like an insurance policy for consistent outputs. You may find out that some of the great photographers who used 35mm format -Life Magazine, Magnum Photos- were known of having sticked to usually one film-one developer for decades long (google "Harvey's 777" for example)..

 

[amyukie]

Ok guys! I have to start focusing. So from tomorrow, I'll shoot Tri-X + HP5 and use HC-110 for ISO 400 and higher, Rodinal for ISO 200.

I have 3 developers (HC-110, Rodinal, Microphen), 6 different kinds of BW (HP5, Arista Prem 400, TriX, Neopan 1600, Ektachrome E100 , T-Max P3200) and two kinds of C-41 (Ektar 100, Portra400). :bang::bang:

Thanks,
Yukie

 

[Fotohuis]

C41 (CN) and E6 (color slides) are standard processes. So in that way B&W is more complicated.

Fuji Neopan 1600 and all Kodak slide (E6) films are already discontinued. So for E6 better go to Fuji.

What you can do with HC-110 you can also do with Microphen and vice versa. But a liquid concentrate is easier to handle then a powder.
Less messy to make, no problems how to store the stock, less temperature problems to make the working solution etc.

Tri-X (400) and HP5+ are very close. Both can have good results between E.I. 200-1600. Together with an iso 100 film it's already more then enough.

 

[timor]

amyukie: A golden advise not only for beginners but for almost all of us.. For instance, two films, one low- the other one hi-ISO

I know, that you are right but can not help my :bang: curiosity. I know you're right... At least I have combo I am quite sure about to use in "critical" situations. Otherwise like to experiment...

 

[amyukie]

Hi, can someone tell me how much agitation it needs when developing HP5 and Tri-X at ISO 400 and 800 with HC-110??

 

[BobYIL]

Hi, can someone tell me how much agitation it needs when developing HP5 and Tri-X at ISO 400 and 800 with HC-110??

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j24/j24.pdf

(30 seconds intervals of two gentle inversions with tapping against bubbles)

 

[amyukie]

Thank you BobYil

 

[amyukie]

Hi, I'm back with another questions 🙂

I have bought HC-110 to decrease grains, but I still get grainy pics. What did I do wrong? I agitated less, only 2 slow flips every 30 sec. Should I do it lesser? I heard in order to decrease grains, I need to agitate less when fixing too? is it true?

Or maybe I did something wrong in scanning. I use Plustek 7400, just got it last week. If anyone using Plustek, please provide me your settings. Thanks!

Here are sample pictures (both were taken with Tri-X ISO 400 in HC-110 (4.5min, 20deg):

 

[Bingley]

Your photos don't look too grainy to me. But if you want even less grain, try shooting a finer grain film like TMax 400. With regard to agitation, I develop Tri-X in HC110 dil. h, and do an initial 30 secs agitation followed by three inversions every three minutes. Seems to work OK:

Percussion by bingley0522, on Flickr

 

[Fotohuis]

HC-110 will not give less grain when lowering the agitation. This is only the case with Rodinal. Lowering agitation will also give less dense negatives and with some developers you can control a part of the log D curve with it.

Further Tri-X 400 (neither is HP5+) is not a real fine grain film so if you want to have less grain you have to switch to an iso 100 film even even slower.

Grain is defined by:
1) iso rate
2) type of film (cubical/Tgrain type)
3) developer

If you want to combine 1) and 2), you can switch to Fuji Acros 100, Tmax 100 or Delta 100.
Even less grain you can get with an Ultra Fine Grain type developer and with above films the grain is in order of an iso 25 film but on iso 50 speed. (You will loose one F stop with an Ultra Fine Grain type developer.)

The way how you're scanning is also affecting grain. e.g. how you put the USM.

 

[kanzlr]

digital spoilt us by making us think that ISO 400 actually IS slow 🙂

 

[Fotohuis]

digital spoilt us by making us think that ISO 400 actually IS slow 🙂

Good remark:

iso 25-50 is slow speed
iso 100-200 is medium speed
up iso 400 is high speed film

But iso 100 in an M7 + the right lenses is not any problem.

Here an example on Fuji Acros 100, E.I. 80 in Rodinal 1+50.
M7+Summarit 2,5/75mm. Even in a high acutance developer like Rodinal the grain is still small.

 

[timor]

I have bought HC-110 to decrease grains, but I still get grainy pics. What did I do wrong?

If you want really grainless negatives shoot Tmax 100 and develop in Xtol or D76 1+2. With TX no matter what you gonna do, there will be always some grain as TX is not a fine grain film by nature.

 

[amyukie]

Thanks all, Im gonna try some Tmax next time. I also want to try dilution H of HC-110 as bingley said.

 

[Freakscene]

Sodium- or ammonium thiosulphate function the same, the only difference is time of fixing.

This is not correct. Proportional fixing of silver halides varies between them. By the time sodium thiosulfate fixers start to effectively fix silver iodide, they also have started to dissolve image forming silver.

This is because sodium ions play no part in the fixing reaction other than being a balancing positively charged ion in the fixer. The ammonium ion, however, plays a substantial role in the fixing reaction by being a silver complexing agent itself. So, both ammonium and thiosulfate ions take part in the fixing action and their action occurs synergistically. Ammonium ion is also 2/3 the size of a sodium ion and therefore diffuses out of the emulsion more rapidly. You therefore have several differences and advantages when considering ammonium vs sodium thiosulfate fixers.

The key for archival processing lies in the washing, i.e. to get rid of the final traces of thiosulphate effectively.

But the film needs to be properly fixed before you even start washing. If you don't fix the iodides, the film is not properly fixed. If the film is not properly fixed it is not archival.

"Ansel Adams gives the following formula for a plain hypo bath
warm water 750 ml
Sodium thiosulfate 250 g
Water to make 1 l
Fixing time is 5 to 10 minutes"

From a time before greater use of iodides in film. Adams died nearly 30 years ago. The films then were ~3% iodide, today many are 10-12%.

Marty

 

[BobYIL]

This is not correct. Proportional fixing of silver halides varies between them. By the time sodium thiosulfate fixers start to effectively fix silver iodide, they also have started to dissolve image forming silver.

This is because sodium ions play no part in the fixing reaction other than being a balancing positively charged ion in the fixer. The ammonium ion, however, plays a substantial role in the fixing reaction by being a silver complexing agent itself. So, both ammonium and thiosulfate ions take part in the fixing action and their action occurs synergistically. Ammonium ion is also 2/3 the size of a sodium ion and therefore diffuses out of the emulsion more rapidly. You therefore have several differences and advantages when considering ammonium vs sodium thiosulfate fixers.

I too said the use of ammonium thiosulphate is for speed of fixing... Other than this did you try to say something different?

"But the film needs to be properly fixed before you even start washing. If you don't fix the iodides, the film is not properly fixed. If the film is not properly fixed it is not archival."

Did I say something different?

From a time before greater use of iodides in film. Adams died nearly 30 years ago. The films then were ~3% iodide, today many are 10-12%.

Iodide, UP TO about 3% can be added to an emulsion to increse either speed or contrast or both. Would you name one modern emulsion having 10-12% iodide?

A number of fixers, not only plain fixer but also F-5, F-6, F-24 and TF-2, being used for modern films are all based on sodium thiosulphite. Rapid fixers have a faint ammonia odor, which plain fixers do not. If a ready-made fixer, no matter what brand, does not smell like ammonia then be sure that it is based on sodium thiosulphite.

I have started to develop film in 1963. My B&W negatives from those years did not show any deterioration even after almost half a century. Those days I was developing the HP3 today the HP5+; always the same process..

 

[Freakscene]

I too said the use of ammonium thiosulphate is for speed of fixing... Other than this did you try to say something different?

It's the question of proportional speed. Plain thiosulfate can't fix iodide adequately quickly to achieve proper fixing before the fixer starts to etch image forming silver. If you use normal fixing times you leave some unfixed silver in the emulsion. It's not simply a matter of rate/speed.

Iodide, UP TO about 3% can be added to an emulsion to increse either speed or contrast or both. Would you name one modern emulsion having 10-12% iodide?

All the TMax and Delta films.

A number of fixers, not only plain fixer but also F-5, F-6, F-24 and TF-2, being used for modern films are all based on sodium thiosulphite. Rapid fixers have a faint ammonia odor, which plain fixers do not. If a ready-made fixer, no matter what brand, does not smell like ammonia then be sure that it is based on sodium thiosulphite.

Unused acid ammonium thiosulfate fixers should not smell like ammonia unless they have started to deteriorate.

I have started to develop film in 1963. My B&W negatives from those years did not show any deterioration even after almost half a century. Those days I was developing the HP3 today the HP5+; always the same process..

I am not arguing with your own experience, only that your method is unlikely to work all the time for everyone, and that if using modern films (or papers, actually) users concerned with proper long-term stability of their media should think about this.

Marty

 

[Kent]

Although I originally used Kodak D76, I have learned to love Rodinal, because of three reasons:

1. It can be stored for quite a while.
2. At 1:25 and 21°C you work fast and will get pronouned grain (if you want that).
3. At 1:50 and 19/20°C it will give you little grain (still there) and will still be contrasty and very sharp.

A very versatile debeloper.