Twigs
Absolut Newbie
Hi there,
I have just started scanning with my newly acquired Epson 4490 flatbed with Vuescan. I noticed that the tones of the resulting images are clustered together, and after some tweaking in Level/Curve the tones become very coarse (see pic 1).
So I played around with the Curve Low and Curve High settings under the Color tab in Vuescan, and I was able to get a wider range of tones (see the improvement from pic 2 to pic 3).
I've been thinking and thinking about this, but all I got was just more and more questions... :bang:
1. True or False: When I adjust the crop box in Vuescan, if I include the very bright/dark area outside the frame, I jeopardize the picture quality (esp. the tonal range).
2. Is adjusting the Curve Low and Curve High settings the best way to extract the most out of the raw scan?
3. Do I have to do this for every frame I scan or is there an easier work-around?
4. Is this an inherent problem with low-cost scanners?
5. What if I shoot/develope for higher/lower contrast?
6. On a semi-related note, I usually overexpose my pictures (by half of a stop) and then reduce developement time (by 10%) to get more shadow details without blocking highlights, am I doing this correctly?
Thank a bunch!
I have just started scanning with my newly acquired Epson 4490 flatbed with Vuescan. I noticed that the tones of the resulting images are clustered together, and after some tweaking in Level/Curve the tones become very coarse (see pic 1).
So I played around with the Curve Low and Curve High settings under the Color tab in Vuescan, and I was able to get a wider range of tones (see the improvement from pic 2 to pic 3).
I've been thinking and thinking about this, but all I got was just more and more questions... :bang:
1. True or False: When I adjust the crop box in Vuescan, if I include the very bright/dark area outside the frame, I jeopardize the picture quality (esp. the tonal range).
2. Is adjusting the Curve Low and Curve High settings the best way to extract the most out of the raw scan?
3. Do I have to do this for every frame I scan or is there an easier work-around?
4. Is this an inherent problem with low-cost scanners?
5. What if I shoot/develope for higher/lower contrast?
6. On a semi-related note, I usually overexpose my pictures (by half of a stop) and then reduce developement time (by 10%) to get more shadow details without blocking highlights, am I doing this correctly?
Thank a bunch!
Attachments
sf
Veteran
If you're really a newbie, Vuescan might be a tad harsh. I know I couldn't deal with that awful UI.
As a rule of thumb, a flat scan is a safe scan. It allows you to get the most from the negative and to curve afterwards in Photoshop or other program.
good luck!
As a rule of thumb, a flat scan is a safe scan. It allows you to get the most from the negative and to curve afterwards in Photoshop or other program.
good luck!
RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
Twigs said:
I'm fairly new to Vuescan. I like it, but it can be frustrating at times. I pay attention to the curve histogram as I adjust. Here's what I think:
1. Yes, Vuescan appears to factor in the light and dark areas that you include within the crorp
2. I use this as well as any other adjustment to get a good scan. I will sometimes adjust knowing what I want to do in PS.
3. As far as I know, yes.
4. Is what an inherent problem with a low-cost scanner?
5. I don't think any of the above concerns will change. I guess you can tune your developing to the scanning process. This may be where you can overcome the limitations of low-end scanners. General common wisdom is that thinner/lower contrast negatives scanner better.
6. Theoretically, this sounds correct, but the amount of compensation for overexposure is probably somehting that you have to work out for your specific seetup (film, developer, techinique, etc.).
I'm no scanning expert, so I'm hoping we'll hear from some others here.
Twigs
Absolut Newbie
shutterflower said:
Thanks man!
The UI isn't too bad, I can always fall back to the "Guide me" mode.
Does a "flat scan" mean using default settings?
amateriat
We're all light!
Don't know the last time you played around with VueScan, but I think the UI has come a long way in the last several years (in my case I'm referring to the Mac version, which I've used since early OS 9, and now using a late version – though not the latest – for OS X). As a scanning application, I think it's wonderful, but might be a bit of a handful for a beginner, in which case it's best to start with the "basic" control option, with fewer controls, until a certain comfort level is achieved.shutterflower said:
- Barrett
Twigs
Absolut Newbie
RayPA said:
Thanks Ray!
What other adjustments do you usually use?
Never mind about question 4, you already answered it in #5.
With lower contrast negatives, the raw scan usually come out with most tones packed in the middle of the histogram. And when you apply level/curves the tones will spread out, leaving gaps between them, giving the picture a coarse appearance. Are there ways to fill those gaps?
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wdenies
wdenies
With every Epson scanner comes the program Epsonscan.
Very easy to use: offers different user levels (from automatc to expert).
Compare the results of this program with those of Vuescan.
This way, by elimination you could find the source of your problems.
Wim
Very easy to use: offers different user levels (from automatc to expert).
Compare the results of this program with those of Vuescan.
This way, by elimination you could find the source of your problems.
Wim
sf
Veteran
Twigs said:
and my shot at answering those questions (because I can't sleep):
1. no idea
2. adjusting curves is the best way to get the most out of the raw scan (that is true if you are curving AFTER the scan). You can curve the preview and scan at the adjusted levels, but you are going to be sacrificing aspects of tonality.
3. no idea.
4. Yes. Low cost scanners are not going to produce the scan quality that more expensive scanners will produce. If talking about flatbeds, there are the quality of the glass and the scanning mechanism to consider. My Epson 3200 was cheapy and it produced decent scans most of the time, but had pretty nasty banding some of the time and produced scans that are noticeably dull and tonally limited compared to those from my pricey Multi Pro. Cheap scanners are cheap for a reason. Like cheap cameras, you almost always get what you pay for.
5. If you shoot and develop for higher contrast, you have limited your tonal quality already, then you just have to either match that with the scan, or scan flat and match it in an editing program. I would generally say develop for a nice smooth tonal range, then mess with things afterward.
6. I really don't know.
sf
Veteran
Twigs said:
and my shot at answering those questions (because I can't sleep):
1. no idea
2. adjusting curves is the best way to get the most out of the raw scan (that is true if you are curving AFTER the scan). You can curve the preview and scan at the adjusted levels, but you are going to be sacrificing aspects of tonality.
3. no idea.
4. Yes. Low cost scanners are not going to produce the scan quality that more expensive scanners will produce. If talking about flatbeds, there are the quality of the glass and the scanning mechanism to consider. My Epson 3200 was cheapy and it produced decent scans most of the time, but had pretty nasty banding some of the time and produced scans that are noticeably dull and tonally limited compared to those from my pricey Multi Pro. Cheap scanners are cheap for a reason. Like cheap cameras, you almost always get what you pay for.
5. If you shoot and develop for higher contrast, you have limited your tonal quality already, then you just have to either match that with the scan, or scan flat and match it in an editing program. I would generally say develop for a nice smooth tonal range, then mess with things afterward.
6. I really don't know.
sf
Veteran
amateriat said:
I was just unable to see how it was helping me, I guess. The software that came with the Multi Pro was doing things perfectly. I just thought Vuescan would make it even better - which it did not, and it actually made it a great deal more difficult to get even close to what I had been getting.
My point to our newbie here is that Vuescan imposes a strong learning curve AND a nasty UI compared with other scanner programs, and this just adds an extra layer of work and complication.
I would just get a scan using the boxed scanner software, epson scan, whatever, that doesn't blow the highlights and doesn't block the shadows, then get the tones and ranges where I want them in post processing. I didn't have the knack, the talent, the skill, the knowledge it takes to use Vuescan. The time or the patience either.
RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
shutterflower said:
I agree with this . Also, I come from a similar background of using Epson's boxed software, which worked, but doesn't have the controls that VS does. I think VS gets more out of my scanner than the generic Epson sftwre.
RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
Twigs said:Thanks Ray!
What other adjustments do you usually use?
Never mind about question 4, you already answered it in #5.
With lower contrast negatives, the raw scan usually come out with most tones packed in the middle of the histogram. And when you apply level/curves the tones will spread out, leaving gaps between them, giving the picture a coarse appearance. Are there ways to fill those gaps?
white point, black point, brightness, color brightness, the CI selections. Regarding the gaps, the histogram I use looks different than yours, I'll try to pay attention to what happens when I scan, but I do occassionally see the gaps in PS levels adjustment.
.
clintock
Galleryless Gearhead
I found this page-
http://oomz.net/bw_workflow/
to be the most helpful thing I have yet seen to get a grip on scanning..
I really like the advise on making the histogram gaps heal..
I think many come to the conclusion that what you want from the scanning software is just to 'get everything' from the scan and write that to a file, then deal with the curves etc. in a separate image manipulation software, like photoshop or graphicconverter or whatever..
A summary of the process on the link above:
Prescan- Crop as needed to make sure only the image area is included.
Set endpoints in the scanning software- Adjust the endpoints of the histogram of the cropped prescan.
Scan- At full depth and resolution for the scanner. No simple answer on what file type to use, TIFF, RAW, or JPEG.. I use JPEG saved with the compression set to zero, or whatever makes it the least compression. Experiment to determine if the gigabyte sized raw file looks any different from the two mb jpeg after you are all done..
Verify the histogram got everything you wanted on the image, if so, save, if not adjust and re-scan.
Keep in mind the contrast will probably be lacking but as long as all the info is in the scanned file, you're good.
Open in image manipulation software, and tweak the grey point, the contrast etc.
Then the histogram might be a gappy mess.
Heal the histogram- Scale the picture to 50%. Depending on the sofware, you'll have to dig a bit to verify the scaling alogorithm, you want 'Bell' or the like..
I scale at 50% just because I figure it's nice and easy for the computer to do a simple halving- the simpler the 'math' the computer does on the data the better I guess.
Verify the histogram is smooth again, if not, dig around the menus until you can get the alogorithm to the right setting.. I'm sure it's documented somewhere in the software help on the subject of scaling.
Then do the unsharp mask... save a copy, leaving the un-altered scanned copy stored for a later day when you feel you can do a better job with the tweaking-done.
All the above could be done in vuescan i suppose, except the scaling I think..
I've only got the cheap version of vuescan, with no RAW, but I'm gonna pony up the money today to get the full blown one, so I can see what all this RAW bidness is about. I like the idea of scanning everything to RAW, then turning the scanner off, putting the film away, then messing with getting things to look right.
http://oomz.net/bw_workflow/
to be the most helpful thing I have yet seen to get a grip on scanning..
I really like the advise on making the histogram gaps heal..
I think many come to the conclusion that what you want from the scanning software is just to 'get everything' from the scan and write that to a file, then deal with the curves etc. in a separate image manipulation software, like photoshop or graphicconverter or whatever..
A summary of the process on the link above:
Prescan- Crop as needed to make sure only the image area is included.
Set endpoints in the scanning software- Adjust the endpoints of the histogram of the cropped prescan.
Scan- At full depth and resolution for the scanner. No simple answer on what file type to use, TIFF, RAW, or JPEG.. I use JPEG saved with the compression set to zero, or whatever makes it the least compression. Experiment to determine if the gigabyte sized raw file looks any different from the two mb jpeg after you are all done..
Verify the histogram got everything you wanted on the image, if so, save, if not adjust and re-scan.
Keep in mind the contrast will probably be lacking but as long as all the info is in the scanned file, you're good.
Open in image manipulation software, and tweak the grey point, the contrast etc.
Then the histogram might be a gappy mess.
Heal the histogram- Scale the picture to 50%. Depending on the sofware, you'll have to dig a bit to verify the scaling alogorithm, you want 'Bell' or the like..
I scale at 50% just because I figure it's nice and easy for the computer to do a simple halving- the simpler the 'math' the computer does on the data the better I guess.
Verify the histogram is smooth again, if not, dig around the menus until you can get the alogorithm to the right setting.. I'm sure it's documented somewhere in the software help on the subject of scaling.
Then do the unsharp mask... save a copy, leaving the un-altered scanned copy stored for a later day when you feel you can do a better job with the tweaking-done.
All the above could be done in vuescan i suppose, except the scaling I think..
I've only got the cheap version of vuescan, with no RAW, but I'm gonna pony up the money today to get the full blown one, so I can see what all this RAW bidness is about. I like the idea of scanning everything to RAW, then turning the scanner off, putting the film away, then messing with getting things to look right.
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jano
Evil Bokeh
RayPA said:
This is an interesting statement. You'll see the majority of people suggest using vuescan to get a starting file, then do all the work in PS. I follow this principle as well, and thus end up using almost no tools vuescan has to offer -- I guess one of the strengths in vuescan is the ability to get you this starting file with little effort (once you conquer the interface, of course).
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Pherdinand
the snow must go on
"flat scan" should mean flat in contrast, i suppose.
Always work with 16-bit colour depth images. 48 with RGB, of course. In that case you won't get "gaps"in the spectrun so easily.
Also, at scanning, the more carefully you select the high and low points the more useful data you get in the scanned image file. SOmetimes it's worth it to do the histograms for each frame,sometimes it's not.
Always work with 16-bit colour depth images. 48 with RGB, of course. In that case you won't get "gaps"in the spectrun so easily.
Also, at scanning, the more carefully you select the high and low points the more useful data you get in the scanned image file. SOmetimes it's worth it to do the histograms for each frame,sometimes it's not.
wdenies
wdenies
Latest version of Epsonscan: 3.03d
Try it!
Try it!
sf
Veteran
RayPA said:
thing is, you can impose these adjustments post scan as well. Scan for the most information (flatness depends on the DMAX of your scanner, and depends on where the tones are in the neg - you can only be so flat or so contrasty given what is actually there), then go into PS and set blackpoint, whitepoint, curve, contrast, etc. If you set these before scanning, you might some day want to change the look of the image and will be missing some key information at the ends, or have your midrange too compacted. Of course getting the tonal aspects accurate to reality is only achieved through divine intervention.
RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
jano said:
I've been getting scans off of VS where I do very little by way of adjustments in PS. In these cases I use PS to size and sharpen only. Conversely, I have often scanned with the intent on doing finer level controls in PS--that is, scan a negative to achieve a "generic" result that gives me some room in PS to try different things.
sf
Veteran
RayPA said:I've been getting scans off of VS where I do very little by way of adjustments in PS. In these cases I use PS to size and sharpen only. Conversely, I have often scanned with the intent on doing finer level controls in PS--that is, scan a negative to achieve a "generic" result that gives me some room in PS to try different things.
When I owned the KM Multi Pro, I always scanned as flat as I could while maintaining good tonal definition in order to keep highlights and shadows defined as well. I did this because I knew that someday I would have to sell the scanner, and I wanted to have all the information I could get from the negative instead of an idealized version of it. If I want to go in and change the curving, I can do that because I have this very good foundation scan to work with. If I had placed the curves where they look best at the scan time, then I would have a much more limited file, and I would regret not being able to re-scan the image.
robertdfeinman
Robert Feinman
Tips
Tips
I have a lot of scanning and photoshop tips on my website. Even a few dealing with Vuescan and B&W.
The most important thing is not to clip any values in the scan. You can also set a parameter which tells vuescan to ignore a certain percentage of the border when calculating the exposure.
I suggest you set the exposure manually in Vuescan. Do a preview then lock the exposure and then adjust the white and black point triangles so that you are not cutting off any values. You can check this in the final histogram display.
The other thing to do is scan using 16 bit instead of 8 bit output. Then in photoshop using the curves dialog (not the levels) set your contrast and brightness. After doing this you can flatten the image and set it to 8 bit for display or printing. This will eliminate the posterization you are seeing.
If you still have questions after reading my tips send me an email and I'll see if I can help. The web site scantips.com is also useful.
Tips
I have a lot of scanning and photoshop tips on my website. Even a few dealing with Vuescan and B&W.
The most important thing is not to clip any values in the scan. You can also set a parameter which tells vuescan to ignore a certain percentage of the border when calculating the exposure.
I suggest you set the exposure manually in Vuescan. Do a preview then lock the exposure and then adjust the white and black point triangles so that you are not cutting off any values. You can check this in the final histogram display.
The other thing to do is scan using 16 bit instead of 8 bit output. Then in photoshop using the curves dialog (not the levels) set your contrast and brightness. After doing this you can flatten the image and set it to 8 bit for display or printing. This will eliminate the posterization you are seeing.
If you still have questions after reading my tips send me an email and I'll see if I can help. The web site scantips.com is also useful.