Want to get my photography to a higher plan, but how?

[RML]

As I said in another thread, preparing _my newly released books_ has put my photography in some perspective. I'm now starting to think more conciously about what I'm doing: the reasons for my shooting. Am I shooting for a book or some other publication? For my own pleasure? To record some personally "important" event? Or experimenting? That insight alone is worth so much.

I've also come to the conclusion that I want to lift my photography to a higher plan. There's nothing "wrong" with it but I want have more "professional" results. I've especially come to the conclusion that the final result (the print) is important; an insight that has only dawned on me in the past month or so.

So, knowing that I shoot digital and prefer colour over B&W, how do I go from here? Any thoughts, ideas, advice? I don't want to become a pro; I have a pretty well-paid daytime job already. I want to come to a level where I would proudly display my own photos on my wall. Proudly as in "not just proud of the shot but also proud of the final print".

Am I clear here or just talking rubbish? 😛

 

[sf]

Not clear, but not rubbish either. Just very difficult to get one's mind around the problem. You say you want to lift your photography to a higher plan(e). . . do you mean technically or artistically and personally?

I know that taking my art to a higher plane meant finding a subject that I can connect with, and which I can shoot and capture purely from visceral inspiration. I mean, shoot something that you can connect with through the VF, so you're composing with your soul instead of your mind. Sounds corny, but it seems true.

I, too, have found that the final image is the point of photography, though the act of shooting is very important to the self. My self. Being able to take the negative and fine tune it into the exact image that your desire - that is the point of photography. Ansel Adams and Sally Mann both have this down in their work. I think bringing emotion into the work, taking it personally instead of as a newpaper photographer takes it, is also important.

I trouble myself with the possibility of selling off my really nice film scanner so that I will have $$$$ to buy tools for taking pictures. That is where my personal battle for growth is. Which is more important, having the images, or perfecting them?

 

[flipflop]

shutterflower,
you could always settle for a cheaper scanner...that way you could get some cash and still be able to scan images. I have the espon 4490 and its pretty decent. Its timely to scan images.
Im sure it will be a HUGE step down from your dual scan multi

 

[RML]

Shutterflower, I guess I'm talking about a technically higher plane, especially for the print.

The shooting I can manage. If I really want to improve there I have to work hard at it, slow down more, use the tripod a bit more perhaps.

But I'm really talking about the final product. How do I go about to get prints (perhaps not gallery quality. Don't need to end up broke!) that can compete in the rear with prints from the pro's? I have my few prints done by a local lab. They do quite good work but at 2 euros per 20x30cm print, those are not super prints. What do I have to go for? Matte? A pro lab that's gonna do probably as good as my current lab but for 10x the money? Check out other printing options (photogravure for example)? I want the best possible for the lowest cost. Perhaps I really should get to talk to a printer.

 

[Dougg]

Remy, I think you'll have to dive into the printing yourself, unless you have the resources to find and hire a top-level expert printer and establish a working relationship.

 

[sf]

Get a good enlarger, some good lenses, a nice DR setup, and begin printing. It took me a few weeks of printing to get the process down - and then I was making beautiful prints. I used a Besseler at my friend's house. I used to use a Lucky Enlarger as well.

Having control over everything yourself is vital.

 

[J. Borger]

I agree a wonderful print is the ultimate goal .. i also agree printing yourself is the way to go ....... but ...you will never make a 20x30 cm superprint for 2 Euros if you start printing yourself.
Home printing is expensive .... very expensive .... especially if you count in papertests, misprints and especially reprints because they were not to your liking (there is always something to improve to get that SUPER print).
Costs of ink & paper add up very fast ..
If you use a nice fine art paper ...... the papersheet alone (20X30) is over 1 Euro a piece.

 

[Toby]

The thing that helps the most is to print or develop in the company of others. The two best things I did were to go to college and to join a darkroom co-operative. If you have other photographers around you can get advice and inspiration, you see other peoples' work being created and can compare it to your own, you can see others working with the same equipment and see what they can squeeze from it, approached with the right attitude a bit of feedback can help you improve at a much faster rate

 

[lubitel]

I am kind of at your technical level, i think. when I shoot film, I develop it at a very cheap place with 10x15 prints, if I need an enlargement I get a 2 dollar enlargements which are okay. but a month ago I was at a friends house who is an amateur photographer who only develops and prints BW himself. I was BLOWN AWAY by the technical quality and beauty of his prints, and they were also only 10x15cm! I couldn't believe it, that such a small size could look so good! They were tack sharp, detailed, beautiful tones, etc. I guess doing it yourself is the only sure way. That probably goes for digital too, but then you need to invest in a good monitor and a really good printer.

 

[sf]

For digital, you'll need to get a monitor calibrator. Absolutely. I don't use one, and find that I have to reprint my stuff on a regular basis. I should get one. . . too poor.

 

[matti]

I agree that the final print is the ultimate goal. After a quick session with my newly aquired enlarger in the kitchen last weekend I never want to use my Canon printer again. Before my darkroom days began (a week ago...) I shot pictures to scan and... well, maybe post here, make a print that would disapoint me and then continue with the next roll of film. Now the goal with taking the pictures in the first place is being able to create a good print from it.

I do think that this has taken me to a new level.

/matti

 

[titrisol]

Your are doing color and digital?
And want to improve your rpints?

Maybe and just maybe you'll need to get a PS class or something like it.
I can help you with BW analog, I'll be moving to the Netherlands in August...

 

[bronekkozka]

final product

final product

The final product is really important, if it is a page in magazine or book, an advert or a fine art print...be it digital or traditional darkroom..... I always find it very disappointing when I hear people throwing in the towel with digital printing.....

To quote matti

Before my darkroom days began (a week ago...) I shot pictures to scan and... well, maybe post here, make a print that would disapoint me and then continue with the next roll of film.

...and Matti is not alone hear....but when you go into a dark room and print you do a test, then a print...then adjust it, then go no that grade is wrong, get a different paper...dodge burn....then decide now back to the other paper and change the grade again....then you decide I'll print multi grade and print different sections of the print using different grades...then finally "THE PRINT"....and it is a thing of beauty...i have been there and it is great....sounds fiddly but it is what you expect in the darkroom, I think we would all agree there.....

But when it comes to digital everyone, sorry generalization, some people think calibrate the monitor and hit Apple P (I'm a Mac person, but you get what I mean)....and if it aint no good....digitals crap back to the darkroom....To get good, exhibition quality prints from digital you need to work at it...just like in the darkroom....papers, inks, colour inks, hextone inks, quad tone ink, variable tone inks....and all the combinations. When I was doing hextone inkjet prints I found it more laborious than doing darkroom prints BUT repeatability was the thing that was great....

Anyway my point is both can be great, but it is just as easy to make crap darkroom prints as it is to make crap digital prints...both require skill, knowledge ...and a good pic to star with.

Bronek Kozka

www.kozka.com

 

[RML]

Bronek, wise words.

However, using an ink/deskjet printer isn't my cuppa tea. I can't bear the things. And I'm not convinced about durability of the inks/dyes.

So, perhaps I should go the darkroom way, at least for some time. My wife actually said she wouldn't mind, as long as I keep the "laundry room" clean. 🙂 That said, how difficult is colour printing? Is it as finicky as colour development? Or "easy" like B&W printing? Is it possible to print colour negs as B&W negs?

Tomorrow is Koninginnedag here in Holland. Huge free market here in Amsterdam. I'm gonna shoot a bit and keep an eye out for some darkroom gear. What should I look for in an enlarger, which I reckon is the most important part of darkroom printing?

 

[bronekkozka]

By all means, you need to find the method and technique that bests suits you and your art ...and the image (sometimes an image can look at its best on beautiful fibre based paper, sometimes it can look its best on a cotton rag etching paper...)

Colour printing is not easy without a dedicated dark room...printing from colour negs is not much fun....in that case scan and learn about quad and hextone printing....Lyson inks, www.inksupply.com, cone edditions all worth looking into....in addition to you darkroom work of course.

Bronek
www.kozka.com

 

[anaanda]

It's the mental state and sincerity of the photgrapher that really matters. Taking yourself to a higher level.....think like that....Humility will also help. Ultimately you have to satisfy yourself because people's opinions are very subjective and depend on their mental state or what resonates with them...On a practical level deciding what equipment and what techniques you like is a journey and process that will evolve and change, start with one step...there is no finality

another thing, the simplier you make it the more you will enjoy it..for example I shoot with basically one camera/one lens and one or two types a film, one developer, print on a cheap epson with MIS high quality inks, only black and white and I have a tradtional darkroom setup(although I haven't used it lately because the prints from the Epson are outstanding!!)

I hope that helps

 

[Kin Lau]

There's a huge difference btwn B&W & Colour in the DIY world.

You mention your 20x30's not looking SUPER... what's missing? Sharpness, contrast, saturation? I've seen comments that some over-sharpen by quite, that it looks overdone on-screen, but on print, it'll look fine.

Over at pnet, someone mentioned uprezing the file to well beyond what you were going to print at, and then sizing it back down.

You can also output a digital file to be printed as a traditional silver gelatin print. Do a search on "Lightjet". They can also do the same for colour.

 

[sf]

I agree that the final print is the ultimate goal. After a quick session with my newly aquired enlarger in the kitchen last weekend I never want to use my Canon printer again. Before my darkroom days began (a week ago...) I shot pictures to scan and... well, maybe post here, make a print that would disapoint me and then continue with the next roll of film. Now the goal with taking the pictures in the first place is being able to create a good print from it.

I do think that this has taken me to a new level.

/matti

That is the real point here. Shooting with the product in mind. When I went out today, I shot some landscapes and rural stuff, and had the print in mind the whole time. Instead of just shooting for composition and subject, I was considering all the zones and tones. Thinking of how much spread in light I was going to have to deal with, thinking about whether I would develop at 1+9 or 1+19.

These are things to think of that will bring the photography to a higher level. If shooting digital, this is also applicable. You must consider your histograms and highlights and shadows, colors and all that. ISOs and RAW. . . .put the final product together on the spot - then perfect it come print time.

 

[sf]

There's a huge difference btwn B&W & Colour in the DIY world.

You mention your 20x30's not looking SUPER... what's missing? Sharpness, contrast, saturation? I've seen comments that some over-sharpen by quite, that it looks overdone on-screen, but on print, it'll look fine.

Over at pnet, someone mentioned uprezing the file to well beyond what you were going to print at, and then sizing it back down.

You can also output a digital file to be printed as a traditional silver gelatin print. Do a search on "Lightjet". They can also do the same for colour.

Lightjet prints are pretty decent. I got some a while back from The Icon in Los Angeles. Pretty decent prints. Not home grown quality, but good. Better than inkjets.

Now if you really want to push things, get a type R from Chrome'n'R in Hollywood, CA. Those are really nice prints.

I just want a 10 color inkjet, 10 shades of gray, and that will do it.

 

[Dougg]

Theoretically I still have a wet darkroom; it's just so cluttered with my wife's stuff it's not usable without a major effort. I might do it though, but for B&W only. Years ago when I was active in the darkroom I tried color after years of B&W experience. Got a dichroic color head for the Beseler 23C, an analyser, etc. Wow, what a pain it turned out to be. For color, I will try the ink-jet route, as my wife has an Epson 2200, but at this point I just take an edited scan on a CF card to my local lab and have them do a traditional C-print. That's been pretty good, but I need to assert more control...