Wartime IIIc, red curtain, stepper rewind

[HuubL]

This one is for Tom I guess. What should I pay for the above camera when in nice condition, although the shutter curtain possibly needs a fix?

 

[LeicaTom]

This one is for Tom I guess. What should I pay for the above camera when in nice condition, although the shutter curtain possibly needs a fix?

Hmmmmmm well, Red Curtain Leica IIIC`s have always been on the high note for collectors ever since the end of the 1960`s when the WW2 Leica stuff started picking up momentum pricewise

Condition is the #1 factor, nearly in all my travels and encounters with this uncommon bird, they are almost always very heavly used, missing the rare ribbed shutter collar ring and have highly scratched top plates, bad knobs and rotten curtains (maybe 70% of them are this way) the 30% surviving cameras in very good to fine/near mint bring a good deal of money even if they are not verified Military engraved, also look for damaged vuclanite, most pre 1945 Leica IIIC vulcanite`s not survived without cracks or some sort of damage

I`d say for a good Red Curtain body $225 to $300 is a realisitic amount -
(for damaged curtain camera In-Operational one)

But, near mint/mint with a matching lens will bring $600+

I just saw a rare Red Curtain IIIC to IIIF conversion sell for over $700, but it was truly mint/minus

If the shutter curtain is rotten or holy/beat up, it takes the entire novelty of the "Red Curtain" away
(I always considered these cameras interesting in only a collectors view and as SHOW CAMERAS and never as a serious camera to work with, they do L@@K beautiful though with that pre 1942 "satin chrome" that just glows when you look at it) 😀

I don`t know of anyone here in the West who`s restoring the curtains with correct fabric, some fakes have come out of the Eastern Bloc countries in the past, but a suitable replacement for the Red stuff just is`nt out there now....unless someone knows something I don`t?

please post if anyone KNOWS where to get good reproduction Leitz/Kodak Red Curtain material

Tom

PS: If you are really looking for a "shooter" Leica IIIC that`s a "Stepper" look for postwar US Army one in the #394xxx to #396xxx series, these had much better quality control and they are fantastic working cameras, only major problem is bad vulcanite from a survival standpoint

 

[HuubL]

Thanks Tom! 450 euros for the one I'm eying seems to be on the high side (black spots on the curtain, definitely not scratch-free, but the shutter collar is there! and no lens!). I think I'll pass.

 

[maddoc]

red curtain ...

red curtain ...

... I was always wondering about the red curtain in these cameras. What was the reason to substitute the standard black rubber curtain and what is the material, the red version is made of ? Is it more durable than the black one ?

 

[LeicaTom]

... I was always wondering about the red curtain in these cameras. What was the reason to substitute the standard black rubber curtain and what is the material, the red version is made of ? Is it more durable than the black one ?

The Red Curtain story is`nt 100% clear, it`s sure that is was put to test before the war with samples from Eastman Kodak USA and was supposly part of some tropical climate tests with cameras, others have said it had also something to do with improving shutter curtain performance against light leakage, sadly the men who could tell us for sure are all long dead now 🙁

It`s 100% sure these curtains were instaled because of War Time Material Shortages in Germany at the time
(production was late 1940 to mid/late 1941) after that Leitz had black curtain material again and the Red fabric was forgotten
*Oh I always heard that these curtains were made from Parachute material? Just how true that is who knows?*

I believe that something like 12,000 Red Curtain Leica IIIC`s were made during this time

Tom

 

[LeicaTom]

Thanks Tom! 450 euros for the one I'm eying seems to be on the high side (black spots on the curtain, definitely not scratch-free, but the shutter collar is there! and no lens!). I think I'll pass.

Yes, that`s a good choice, the Red Curtain`s are really just collectors realm cameras, only a real beater that`s cheap for a CLA would be a bargain and worth looking into as a Wartime style shooter......

I was lucky myself about 4 weeks ago to find a #361xxx issue *black curtain* early production Leica IIIC (the first few thousand Leica IIIC`s had black curtains) this camera`s
"engraved" NL Leitz Netherlands (Odin) Leitz sales distributor during the occupation

I found it for under $200, but it needs an entire restoration internally, new curtains and RF parts and the top plate has taken some very bad blows, it`s still pretty and has 99% original vulcanite but needs about $400 worth of time and parts into it to make it a 100% operatiing camera

This camera was used during the war, in the occupied Holland by a German either civilian or military who knows?

I wish that camera could talk to me it would have a bold story to tell for sure

Tom

 

[maddoc]

The Red Curtain story is`nt 100% clear, it`s sure that is was put to test before the war with samples from Eastman Kodak USA and was supposly part of some tropical climate tests with cameras, others have said it had also something to do with improving shutter curtain performance against light leakage, sadly the men who could tell us for sure are all long dead now 🙁

It`s 100% sure these curtains were instaled because of War Time Material Shortages in Germany at the time
(production was late 1940 to mid/late 1941) after that Leitz had black curtain material again and the Red fabric was forgotten
*Oh I always heard that these curtains were made from Parachute material? Just how true that is who knows?*

I believe that something like 12,000 Red Curtain Leica IIIC`s were made during this time

Tom

Thank you, Tom !! Very informative and interesting. I have only seen once such a red-curtain equipped Leica here in Japan in a shop for sale (for a ridiculous high price of course ...:bang🙂

Cheers,

 

[Mr_Flibble]

GoKevinsCameras always has a few on sale on Ebay. But the prices are too rich for my blood.

I recently bought a Red Curtain IIIc through a live auction with a sticky shutter but otherwise nice condition for $450 (Serial 370xxx), this was including a 50mm Elmar lens. It is doubtful that it still has its original vulcanite though.

 

[photovdz]

a sticky shutter is almost normal, those red curtains tends to melt in black sticky rubber spots....
the game is not to buy a red curtain but to find one ... not knowing it's a RC... ;-)
I've go two RC in my collection, both have sticky curtains of course but :
I got the first one for 100€ and it's complete... and I got the second one (discovered it's a RC when taking off the lens) with a real LTM wartime sonnar for 200$ (from the family of superior officer of the US army during WWII, as they said...).. furthermore that one was transformed for a rare flash sync sole...

Because the shutters are sticky they need to be operated every week at least...

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Thanks for the advice, I will look into it....it still hasn't arrived unfortunately 🙁

 

[mynikonf2]

I have been reading these threads trying to make up my mind about buying a IIIc or going for a IIIf or IIIg. The first problem seems to be locating a good IIIc. What should I pay for a IIIc is also an issue. Any help in locating a camera would be greatly appreciated.

 

[photovdz]

a normal IIIC is not so difficult to find... We were talking about the red curtains one... that are basically collectors item

 

[mynikonf2]

I understand that we are talking about "red cutain" IIIc's. That is why I question if I should seek a "red curtain" or go after a more common camera?
I like the mystic of the historical part these cameras played during that period of time. My concern is finding an authentic piece when there are so many fakes being dumped on the market.

 

[LeicaTom]

The only real "fakes" put out on the market concering Leica IIIC`s are the
Grey Paint cameras and this is only for their high collectors values

As for shooting a Red Curtain, you would be very hard pressed to even find one without light leaks, many of these curtains were also replaced by Leitz in the 1950`s for normal material as well, so many don`t even have the curtains anymore in them

Finding a pre 1946 Leica IIIC in good working condition is`nt that easy anymore, the market`s shifted pretty well in the past 6 months and anything that`s built with the stepped rewind platform will be bringing crazy money regardless of condition now, these are really specialzed cameras that very few people use anymore for working/shooting, sadly most collectors have them salted away, there`s a few hardcore shooters like myself who are using them eveny day/week and some other Friend`s of the Stepper across the pond who have been active with them lately, I think it`s always good to find someone who`s interested in these cameras for more than just their collectors value

There`s been a rush on 1940/42 "Red Curtain" cameras lately, but my prediction is these sources will be dried up pretty soon as well

I would suggest a really good IIIC in the #400,000+ range to start out with, really good examples that are CLA`d can be found WITH a lens and CLA`d for under $500 and you are ready to shoot, $500 will barely find you a "Stepper" IIIC anymore, the market for them is pretty well burnt out now, nothing left to buy

Tom

 

[Charles Woodhouse]

A word of caution about using any Red Curtain camera with colour. I've fitted red curtains to a prewar Exakta and a Zorki 3M just for fun, and have got some amazing results, from a complete red wash on the prints at about 1/60 to vertical red lines and random at higher speeds. With light travelling at 180,000 MPH or so it can bounce around a lot in a camera dark chamber as the curtains are doing their thing. I bought the Red material from Fargo in the US a few years ago, and have only used it twice as replacements in red curtain IIIc's.
My latest Step IIIc no.3610xx arrived yesterday, and although it had been slightly butchered by the repairman from hell, I should be able to sort it out and make a properly working representative model of this scarce (circa 1600 cameras) first pattern IIIc. I've got the disease real bad and collect by maker's variations. This first pattern used the generally excellent prewar cloth going back to 1925, and I haven't had to do too many curtain replacements in cameras from this era. I wasn't concerned about the flash socket but some of the other internal butchery was just stupid.
But any IIIc that hasn't been butchered can be brought back to excellent working condition by a thorough overhaul because they were all so well made.

 

[LeicaTom]

My latest Step IIIc no.3610xx arrived yesterday, and although it had been slightly butchered by the repairman from hell, I should be able to sort it out and make a properly working representative model of this scarce (circa 1600 cameras) first pattern IIIc.


But any IIIc that hasn't been butchered can be brought back to excellent working condition by a thorough overhaul because they were all so well made.

Here`s my very early Leica IIIC NL #3613xx Black Curtain series that was verified built mid 1940 (July) and was directly exported to Holland NL engraved, it`s missing external screws, some internal shutter parts, shields and who else knows what ? It also sadly has some serious dents/marks in the top plate (this camera was REALLY used during WW2) the one good thing about the camera is it`s vulcanite is about 99.8% intact and there`s no internal or external modifications - for now it`s hanging around as pretty looking paperweight 🙂



*Here`s a shot of the top plate - Notice the two bad hits it has,
(this camera was used well and also abused by who ever tried to repair it, that one hits a screwdriver mark 🙁) and also the incorrect replacement screw on the rangefinder adjustment etc. I think a butcher had his hands on this camera as well* 🙁

But, I guess that I might have something special afterall, I really have`nt considered how uncommon this really is, I know the NL engraving is rare, but maybe the camera is even rarer than the engraving is?
Hmmm I don`t know? I`ve only heard about/seen 3 pre #362xxx series cameras in the past 5 years, Charles and yours is one of them, I don`t really know too much about the very early Leica IIIC`s I was just lucky to have this one fall into my lap accidently is how it happened to be......

The camera`s kinda growing on me as I look at it....though it`s 100% non-op now and needs about $400 worth of work/parts put into it, maybe I should keep it because it`s made so early? I hate having cameras around that don`t work, for me they are just an issue, but maybe I should see this one as my IIIC K is and also accept it as a collectible as well , it would just be nice if I could also take pictures with it too...😉

....And yes these era Leica`s are well made I agree....... that`s one of the main reasons I use the pre 1945 cameras for working, they never let you down, after a FULL CLA they are just SUPER CAMERAS to work with, working with my 1945 IIIC K (non stamp) to IIIFBD conversion is like heaven, such a smooth working camera 🙂

Tom

 

[Charles Woodhouse]

Hi Tom,
I just came up from working on my new IIIc when I should be doing a customers broken IIIa,
but now I know the design of the IIIc non-return spring wind lock.
I took my figures from Paul-Henry van Hasbroeck and my not always accurate Leica Historica 1978 screw camera production list. P-H van H writes that IIIc's with non-return spring wind lock went from 360175 to 363800 with many gaps for IIIb production, and red curtains came in at 362401, again with gaps, so original early black curtain IIIc's should only occur between 360175 and 362400. Adding up my sometimes dubious Leica Historica figures gives 1570 of these early black curtain cameras and 559 with red curtains, but I know that last figure is wrong.
From another old source I read the 21 red curtain IIIa's were made between 239606 and 239626. I'm still looking for one.
If your NL is looking for a new home, a complete makeover and perhaps a bit of work, perhaps I can help! Just a thought, Charles.

 

[mynikonf2]

Tom & Charles,
That is the allure of these cameras, their quality, & their rarity. Whatever IIIc I acquire, I will have it CLA’d because I intend to use it. I want the experience of working with one of these instruments. The more I read about the IIIc the more I lean towards an early IIIc.

 

[Charles Woodhouse]

Hi mynikonf2,
Any IIIc in good cosmetic condition, that is one that hasn't had a hard life is a delight to work with, allthough I do read a lot of complaints about the squinty little viewfinder. It doesn't worry me because I can take my glasses off and still see quite clearly, but it probably comes as a shock to someone used to looking through an OM-1.
I have ten IIIc's(although I would like to start a collectors movement to name the postwar cameras IIIe), and have used most of them. My favorite for use however is a star serial number postwar camera that I bought as a battered wreck and rebuilt.It is the silkiest Leica I have ever handled.
One tiny drawback to bottom loading cameras is having to cut the film leader to 10cm, but I carry a small pair of scissors and 10cm is the length of my index finger.
IIIc's are simpler to work on and much more rugged than any other rangefinder Leica, but Leitz could have learned a lot from Canon regarding rangefinder camera development, and from Nikon regarding SLR development. But had Canon stuck a mirror box on their P they would have made the perfect SLR, IMHO.

 

[Charles Woodhouse]

Tom, I'm sorry to have been so crass as to make an offer on your early NL IIIc - I should have read your post more carefully and I would have realised how attached you are to it. I guess I just get twitchy (and greedy) when I hear about cameras like this that could be given a new lease on life.
I bought a III from a friend a while back. It is engraved Stapo Liegnitz (State Police, Liegnitz or Legnica in Nazi occupied Poland) and my friend couldn't use it because it had no shutter at all and no slow speed mechanism, etc, etc. After obtaining the parts and a complete rebuild it
sits on top of a MOOLY and works perfectly, whereas my other early screwmounts with original heavier curtains miss frames with the MOOLY.