Wartime IIIc, red curtain, stepper rewind

Charles Woodhouse said:
Tom, I'm sorry to have been so crass as to make an offer on your early NL IIIc - I should have read your post more carefully and I would have realised how attached you are to it. I guess I just get twitchy (and greedy) when I hear about cameras like this that could be given a new lease on life.
Click to expand...

Hahahahhaahha that`s ok Charles, that`s the way I`m with the K shutter IIIC`s and the late produced "stepper`s" the 1946 models, or the "crossover" cameras, I think though I`ll have enough with 6 or 7 of them, just enough to being using all the time, I`m more of a historian then a collector LOL!!!!!!! 😉

I`m considering trading it for a camera I used to own, it was a very clean mid 46' model that just needs new covering and curtains (the 1946 "crossover" cameras are pretty uncommon as well, less then 500 were made)

But, I`m slightly attacted to this camera now and I`d like to see it working again though, it`s the earliest IIIC I`ve ever owned and I don`t know if I want to keep it due to it`s age and history or trade it in for something that I know will out perform it threefold
(I`m more about the shooting and working with these old things)

The IIIC K and the postwar "crossover" IIIC Stepped Rewind platform cameras are amoung the finest of all IIIC models and my 1945 non stamp IIIC K to IIIFBD is a jewel of a camera, looks like it was in Korea covering the war, but it performs like a champ, I even added a Canon "pop-up" spool to it so loading is like a sinch, bullet fast and no major problems, the camera is my weekly user

Tom
 
Last edited:
Dear Tom,

You almost certainly know more about this than I, but I recall that in the late 60s/early 70s, when I knew many early collectors, there was a widespread belief that the red blind material was originally for test purposes; that it was slightly more resistant to burning than black; but that as it was a lot more expensive, and as the improvement was very slight, Leica didn't bother. Then, when they couldn't get the black material easily, they used up the leftover test material (after all, you can make a lot of shutter curtains out of a few metres of fabric).

I do not recall the origin of this story; Colin Glanfield, from whom (I think) I first heard it, is dead these ten years or more; and it may merely be that it was a plausible fantasy. There are, after all, plenty of those in camera collecting! But I pass it on for what it is worth.

Cheers,

Roger
 
Roger Hicks said:
Dear Tom,

You almost certainly know more about this than I, but I recall that in the late 60s/early 70s, when I knew many early collectors, there was a widespread belief that the red blind material was originally for test purposes; that it was slightly more resistant to burning than black; but that as it was a lot more expensive, and as the improvement was very slight, Leica didn't bother. Then, when they couldn't get the black material easily, they used up the leftover test material (after all, you can make a lot of shutter curtains out of a few metres of fabric).

I do not recall the origin of this story; Colin Glanfield, from whom (I think) I first heard it, is dead these ten years or more; and it may merely be that it was a plausible fantasy. There are, after all, plenty of those in camera collecting! But I pass it on for what it is worth.

Cheers,

Roger
Click to expand...

Hello Roger!

Yes, as I mentioned above the test material supposly came from Eastman Kodak in about 1936/37, as Charles mentioned there`s even Leica IIIa`s that also are Red Curtain cameras, I can imagine the first cameras (if any) in the 1930`s were all for TEST just being used in Betribscameras (factory test) ones that never ever left the factory and were refitted with black curtains or destroyed

The 1940/42 era Red Curtains were made out of necessity of the times with wartime stortages made with the left over material, the fabric must have been very good because the German Airforce received a few thousand cameras with them and they were`nt recalled or refitted, only time now has made them go bad with aging, like the vulcanite of the same era, the Red Curtain fabric just didn`t stand the test of time on these cameras

Tom
 
Last edited:
mynikonf2 said:
Look at this listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-IIIC-LUFT...ryZ15234QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Click to expand...

About $1,200 TOO MUCH!

It looks like the real deal. but without 100% verification, would`nt touch it with a 10 foot pole, these are the easiest of all Military Leica`s to fake, this seller also had a IIIC K Grey about a year ago that turned out to be a bogus camera

Always have to check the numbers when you invest in cameras such as these and Jim Lager is the ONLY resource for figuring out if it`s REAL or not

Tom
 
Last edited:
I have an opportunity to purchase a IIIc red curtain in excellent condition but the price is steep. The price being asked is $995, almost a grand. What do you think? These are becoming harder to find and so the prices will continue to increase with time. I’ve been wanting one for some time now so I’m seriously thinking about buying it. Talk to me, let me know what you think…
 
mynikonf2 said:
I have an opportunity to purchase a IIIc red curtain in excellent condition but the price is steep. The price being asked is $995, almost a grand. What do you think? These are becoming harder to find and so the prices will continue to increase with time. I’ve been wanting one for some time now so I’m seriously thinking about buying it. Talk to me, let me know what you think…
Click to expand...

Nah, I`d pass.....for that price it better be Mint/Mint minus and guaranteed 100% original issued lens, I`ve seen maybe 4 or 5 Mint Red Curtain cameras in my whole life, it`s one of the most used of all Leica cameras, while 65% of them were issued German Airforce and the rest all to German industry and during 1940/45 there were really well used

And as I`ve said before the Red Curtain is just a camera with colored shutter fabric, as a collectable they have stayed in the $400 to $900 range forever, (at least the past ten years) only the 100% verified Luftwaffen cameras bring investment money and now the market`s down, so examples can be found for good prices *under $2,000* if you are patient and do your homework on the authenticity of each camera

Saving your money for a IIIC K or buying a post 1942 Leica IIIC is a better suggestion, (you get more bang for your buck, while the post 1942 cameras were even better performers than the early IIIC`s)

If you want a really good shooter the postwar "flattop" Leica IIIC`s from #400001 to about #420000 are great cameras, just look closely for any chrome problems (pitting or peeling) if it`s a soild camera and looking really good then you have a winner - I sold a #402xxx era camera with the postwar issued (wartime serial numbered) Summitar lens just a while ago for $500, it`s been a great shooter to it`s new owner, he was very happy with it

Tom

PS: Due to a backlog of orders and a mass storage during the war, many "wartime" produced Leica lenses were not issued until AFTER the war, you can find "wartime" produced lenses issued till late 1946/early 1947, so if you wind up with a #400000+ camera with a 1942/43 dated lens that`s normal, at least for many Summitar`s it`s the case 🙂 - and a blessing as it`s a fantastic lens for shooting, far superior to the post 1948 dated Summitar`s
 
Last edited:
mynikonf2 said:
Look at this listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-IIIC-LUFT...ryZ15234QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Click to expand...

I`m having these numbers run ........this camera looks familiar now, I think it sold to this seller on ebay for like $1,500 or $1,800, that`s what it`s worth, the buyer just marked it up to make a profit on it, but it`s condition keeps it from being a high market priced camera, I`ve seen LE cameras in way better condition then this one, sell for way cheaper than what this one`s offered at

Tom
 
Last edited:
mynikonf2 said:
Tom,
Here are some pic's of the camera I'm looking at
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/mikebrsm/IIIc-RedCurtain.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/mikebrsm/IIIc-RedCurtain2.jpg
Click to expand...

I know this camera and it was offered to me like almost 2 years ago, looks like it`s been RECOVERED, it does`nt seem to have the original vulcanite on it and it`s way overpriced, it`s worth tops $450 maybe $500 if someone wants it real bad, nothing really special about it in my opinion, there`s way better one`s to be found out there for cheaper money

Tom
 
Here`s the REAL DEAL for all the Luftwaffe collectors out there!

Here`s the REAL DEAL for all the Luftwaffe collectors out there!

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/10...979QQitemZ350087238979QQtimeoutZ1218664133171

I don`t even have to tell you this is the REAL DEAL, with original 1945 dated ownership transfer paperwork from US Army Occupying Forces, the one RF window ring is missing and you can`t tell if the lens is a LE engraved lens (but it seems to be in the right serial number range) overall a very nice camera, but that paperwork I think makes it even more valuable

Sadly the rarest bit`s of the kit that infantryman captured IS`NT with the auction, notice if you read the paperwork carefully there was (3) original LTM Carl Zeiss Sonnar lenses with the camera, 50/85 and 135mm versions
(these lenses would be worth almost as much as the camera if they were with it) - too bad they were lost with time, but that document is very interesting reading and adds to the value of the camera, I perdict at least $2,500 if not more......at the end of this auction

I wish my Grey IIIC K still had it`s original US Army ownership transfer paperwork from 1945, it was part of a kit that a member of 9th Armored Division brought back from Germany in 1945

Tom
 
Last edited:
LeicaTom said:
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/10...979QQitemZ350087238979QQtimeoutZ1218664133171

I don`t even have to tell you this is the REAL DEAL, with original 1945 dated ownership transfer paperwork from US Army Occupying Forces, the one RF window ring is missing and you can`t tell if the lens is a LE engraved lens (but it seems to be in the right serial number range) overall a very nice camera, but that paperwork I think makes it even more valuable....

Tom
Click to expand...

That auction is huge. There's a lot of Leicas up for sale.

I think they are off on the starting bids of common lenses in crappy condition (i.e., Elmar 90/4 LSM with fungus starting at $80).
 
bingo... i have got a good clue that my 2 sonnars are true wartime productions...

that certificate is a wonderful find , it gives the proof that some of the 2858*** sonnars are wartime products...

I own 2859393 LTM (on a IIIC RC n°376660 no military markings) that was told to have a similar story but no certificate (belonged to an american high ranked officer and said to have been found at the end of the war...) and 2859321 LTM ...

the two other serial numbers will also be of great interest to spot LTM production batches... that are not in Thiele's book...

too bad the other lenses are lost...

Stephan...
 
photovdz said:
bingo... i have got a good clue that my 2 sonnars are true wartime productions...

that certificate is a wonderful find , it gives the proof that some of the 2858*** sonnars are wartime products...

I own 2859393 LTM (on a IIIC RC n°376660 no military markings) that was told to have a similar story but no certificate (belonged to an american high ranked officer and said to have been found at the end of the war...) and 2859321 LTM ...

the two other serial numbers will also be of great interest to spot LTM production batches... that are not in Thiele's book...

too bad the other lenses are lost...

Stephan...
Click to expand...

Yes, with 27xxxxx and the 285xxxx serial numnbers, it`s kind of safe to assume that these are from pre 1945 batches, the Russian`s seemed to have really dived into the whole production thing as fast as Leitz did in 1945
and the 285 series lenses could also be part of batches of early postwar Russian Occupying Forces built Sonnar`s, which are just as rare as the wartime one`s, they were all built for Leica or RSM (Russian Screw Mount) cameras only for a very short time right after the war....... things were so crazy in 1945/46 in Europe and cameras were a really hot trading source in the Black Market scene and everybody was in a rush to get production out there 😉

Tom
 
Last edited:
The hypothesis is that the german production continued after the war for a far longer time than previously thought... until 47 at least... until they relaunched at 3000000...
You must also think that the non glass related production and even the polishing work would have been spread around the factory ... may be in smaller workshop (to cope with potential bombing for instance) and that those workshop could work on their stocks...

I know I'm boring ... but the russian occupation forces never produced lenses... the lenses were produced in german owned workshops under russian scrutiny... but not as a planned economy.
Germany stayed more or less a capitalistic country until 1949...even in the USSR occupied zone... they requisionate, eventually steal... but don't rule the economy at that time...
 
photovdz said:
The hypothesis is that the german production continued after the war for a far longer time than previously thought... until 47 at least... until they relaunched at 3000000...
You must also think that the non glass related production and even the polishing work would have been spread around the factory ... may be in smaller workshop (to cope with potential bombing for instance) and that those workshop could work on their stocks...

I know I'm boring ... but the russian occupation forces never produced lenses... the lenses were produced in german owned workshops under russian scrutiny... but not as a planned economy.
Germany stayed more or less a capitalistic country until 1949...even in the USSR occupied zone... they requisionate, eventually steal... but don't rule the economy at that time...
Click to expand...

The postwar production of Zeiss lenes went mostly to the Russian forces, that`s why original lenses are so hard to find, while most where used up, the US Forces had NOTHING to do with the Zeiss factory after the surrender of Germany in May 1945, the Russians took control of the factory and ran it for their own gains until after 1947........after that plans and designs were taken back to Russia and they build their own versions, becoming what`s known now as the Jupiter lenses

Perhaps some of the postwar Sonnar lenses reached the black market in the American West Sector in the late 1940`s, but as it to being so many to make a real difference this is doubtful

Whereas Leica was producing cameras and lenses less than 48 hours after the surrender for the US Army, it`s as if there was`nt even a war inbetween, though camera Export to Leitz NYC didn`t start back up till after 1947......

Tom
 
Last edited:
Just letting anyone know that I bit the bullet and bought that Red Curtain
3C(sic) in Britain for GBP265. From my reckoning it is at most one of only about 900 IIIc's with red curtains and the early non-return spring winding lock, and also about the 50th red curtain Leica made. That does equate to about AU$600 but I reckon it's worth it for the price.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

H
Nikon S Curtain Travel Times and Curtain Bounce
Replies
1
Views
209
Timmyjoe
Timmyjoe
E
FED 2 shutter mod (no more hard slit)
Replies
2
Views
371
e_asphyx
E
S.H.
Leica LTM body suggestions for a wartime LTM Zeiss biogon
Replies
0
Views
601
S.H.
S.H.
P
Zorki 4 arrived and has shutter issues
Replies
15
Views
613
seany65
S
D
Zorki 2S issue
Replies
6
Views
832
Dewexdewex
D
Back
Top Bottom