water marks on negatives

[bert26]

I recently got back into developing my own film and every roll so far has ended up with water marks and I'm not quite sure why.

I'm using HC-110 one shot with distilled water. I'm reusing the fix and stop which are mixed with tap water. My 10 minute rinse is with tap water and my final rinse is with distilled water and Photo-Flo 200. I live in Portland, OR so I thought the tap water here would be okay but maybe it's hard? Should I remake the fix and stop with distilled water? Is there a way to do the 10 minute rinse with distilled water? Just agitation instead of leaving the faucet running?

And lastly, could it be due to my distilled water/Photo-Flo dilution? I simply fill my Paterson tank (fits 2 rolls) just a bit above the top reel and then put the smallest amount of Photo-Flo that I can in the cap and dump it into the tank. Should I be anal about keeping it exactly at 1:200? I only have 50/100/250ml beakers that I use for measuring chemicals but I don't have anything tiny like a 5ml beaker. Guess I should buy one? Also, do you just let the tank sit there with the water/photo-flo or do you spin the reels around with the little black plastic stick whatever the hell it's called.

After the rinse I squeegee the negatives with my index/middle fingers and let them hang dry overnight in my closet.

 

[CharlesDAMorgan]

The Ilford water saving method of rinsing is worth a try.

Also, ensure your photo flo is thoroughly rinsed off - I've moved to a soft water area and was still getting marks, which turned out to be the Photo Flo needing a lot more rinsing (I've also cut that by a third). I'm not so bothered about agitating the Flo, but the rinsing is really vigorous!

Do ensure the fix and stop are made with distilled.

 

[Samuel D]

You might be using too much Photo-Flo. If anything I’d try a little less than the specified strength. That is, dilute it more. The accuracy of eyeballing it in the cap depends on your eyeball calibration. If you’re running into trouble, maybe that’s off.

Try hanging the film diagonally so that small quantities of remaining water don’t run down the whole film but diagonally across one frame and onto the rebate, hopefully leaving their drying marks there rather than on the image.

A squeegee might work better too. Take great care to clean it before use under warm water.

 

[dickgillberg]

Thanks for the question, I also have this problem. Sorry if I hijack it. I live in a soft water region and I get watermarks. Don't use distilled water for my chemicals, but use photo flo just brief before I take my films out to dry. Should I rinse of all the photo flo throuhly many minutes? Why use it at all then?

 

[Freakscene]

Don’t rinse the Photo-flo, there is no point using it if you do that.

Try Photo-flo at 1:400. If I use it at 1:200 as recommended I get marks. Higher dilution than 1:400 (including the homeopathic ‘one drop’ recommended by some) the water doesn’t sheet off properly and I get other problems.

The water in Rochester must be different to everywhere I have ever worked. I don’t doubt that Kodak’s recommendations work for them, but I do believe what I have observed. Repeatability is a general problem in all technical endeavours. Note here: https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48684 that several members mention 1:400 or ‘half strength’.

Marty

 

[retinax]

Try it with the recommended dilution of photo-flo, that could solve it. Use a syringe to measure. Some also report good results with only a drop of the stuff. Others have good results with a rinse with distilled water only, but doesn't work for me. Do NOT rinse off the photo-flo, that's a misunderstanding of its purpose. I don't think the fix or anything have any impact, they are long washed off at the point of drying. You can reuse the photo-flo solution a few times if you are certain you have washed thoroughly before.

 

[Rob-F]

After the rinse I squeegee the negatives with my index/middle fingers and let them hang dry overnight in my closet.

I do everything as you have described, except that I remove excess water using two ordinary kitchen sponges. I put one behind the film and one in front. I hold them against the film with the minimum pressure to prevent them from falling. This avoids scratching the film. They barely touch the film. One swipe down the whole length and that's it. I keep the sponges moist with Photo-flo solution, and store them in a ziplock bag between uses.

Don’t rinse the Photo-flo, there is no point using it if you do that.Marty

That's for sure. I simply use the absolute minimum Photo-flo I can put into the cap. I aim for one drop, but usually get a bit more.

I have never gotten a water mark. I've never gotten a scratch, either. I don't know just how soft our water is. I've been in St. Louis the past 50+ years, where the water is good enough to make Budweiser and Michelob, though. Before that, I lived in Las Vegas. I didn't get water marks there, either. So I think the combination of using minimum Photo-Flo plus wiping with sponges is good. Just keep the wiping to the very lightest pressure, Keep the sponges soft with the Photo-flo solution, and never use them for anything else.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I use cap or half for 1L. I agitate. I remove it after by two fingers method.
I use same mix for months.

 

[presspass]

I had that problem for years until I came across an idea someone posted. I don't remember who posted it but it works. Put isopropyl alcohol in the final rinse. 100 ml 91 percent alcohol to 1 liter of distilled water, one drop of LFN, and agitate for a minute. No wiping needed, dries in about an hour, and absolutely no water marks.

 

[Guest]

Buy distilled water. Cheap at Walmart. I use it for developing and fixing. I then use tap water to wash the film. Then Photo Flo in distilled water, I give the tank a good shake and turning for a good minute before draining. Stopped using fingers and bought the rubber squeegeeing toy, make sure it has been soaked in water before use. I hang film on shower rail and put a small heater in the room, fan on high to move the air in the room.
Drying the film that way has solved my problems with streaks.

 

[randy stewart]

Marks on dried film

Marks on dried film

If you are using distilled (or deionized) water, then you are not getting hard water deposits. Using too much Photoflo can leave marks and stall drying. I'll second prior remarks to increase your Photoflo dilution to 1:400 (half the Kodak recommended amount). No one can accurately eyball such dilutions, particularly given that you are probably setting up 300-500ml of working solution. Get a small unit hypodermic with needle removed to make an accurate dilution. If you mix Photoflo by eyeball, you will almost certainly use too much stock and risk spots.

 

[bert26]

If you are using distilled (or deionized) water, then you are not getting hard water deposits. Using too much Photoflo can leave marks and stall drying. I'll second prior remarks to increase your Photoflo dilution to 1:400 (half the Kodak recommended amount). No one can accurately eyball such dilutions, particularly given that you are probably setting up 300-500ml of working solution. Get a small unit hypodermic with needle removed to make an accurate dilution. If you mix Photoflo by eyeball, you will almost certainly use too much stock and risk spots.

Right on. Just bought a 5ml fluid syringe. Thanks everyone for all of the help!

 

[maddoc]

No rinsing after the photoflo or any other wetting agent, don`t touch the surface of the film with anything after the photoflo. Dilute the photoflo solution more, use maybe 10 drops for your tank volume.


Finally, NEVER put any plastic reel into a wetting agent (photoflo) solution. The wetting agent builds up a very difficult to remove film onto the plastic of the reels which makes film loading more and more difficult over time. If using plastic reels than remove the film from the reel before soaking it in any wetting agent inside a separate plastic container. This was also the official recommendation from JOBO.

 

[Rob-F]

Get a small unit hypodermic with needle removed to make an accurate dilution. If you mix Photoflo by eyeball, you will almost certainly use too much stock and risk spots.

I do just eyeball the photo-flo, never having thought of using a syringe. But I use a syringe for transferring ink into my fountain pens. I leave the needle in place, it's much easier. I think I'll start using one for Photo-flo. Or should I? After doing it by eye for the last 60+ years, maybe I should leave well enough alone . . .

 

[newsgrunt]

...But I use a syringe for transferring ink into my fountain pens..

I have syringes for this as well but still find converters so much more convenient. Lamy pens, fine and extra fine nibs.

 

[Ambro51]

I take a big stainless steel bowl with room temp water, put in about three drops of dishwashing soap, swirl it around and then take the rinsed film out of the tank and off the reel. Dip in one end and then just let it bow down and a quick run through.

 

[v0sh]

I use tap water for every step during development. When I'm done, I hang my film over the bathtub and spray it several times with distilled water. Giving it a good spray removes any remains of the tap water and I get no marks at all.

 

[bert26]

If you are using distilled (or deionized) water, then you are not getting hard water deposits. Using too much Photoflo can leave marks and stall drying. I'll second prior remarks to increase your Photoflo dilution to 1:400 (half the Kodak recommended amount). No one can accurately eyball such dilutions, particularly given that you are probably setting up 300-500ml of working solution. Get a small unit hypodermic with needle removed to make an accurate dilution. If you mix Photoflo by eyeball, you will almost certainly use too much stock and risk spots.

Looking at this syringe, even 1ml looks like A LOT. And since 1:200 is 1.5ml photo-flo and 300ml water, I'll be using 3ml photo-flo to 600ml water since I'm doing two rolls at once. Just confused because I've been told a bottle of photo-flo should last a lifetime. I use Photo-Flo one shot and 3ml of this stuff is a ton. Umm. Can someone tell me like what the ratio should be for a Paterson tank with 2 rolls? ml to ml? 1.5 to 300/3 to 600 cannot be right.

 

[bert26]

Oh and this is the one I bought, seems legit..

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VCF6FG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[giganova]

I never used distilled water, I never used PhotoFlo and never had water marks on my negatives, ever. I put one drop of liquid soap into the tank, move the rolls of film up & down a few times to make sure that the water tension of the water is low everywhere (that's all there is to PhotoFlo or liquid soap: decrease the water tension). Then I use a large kitchen sponge where I cut a slit in it and slide the negatives through that slit. Voila, perfect negatives.