What 35mm rangefinder for a RF newbie?

The Canon 7 is seeming more and more appealing. Then again so is the idea of saving up a huge wad of cash and getting an M4. First I have to decide, screw mount, M mount, or contax mount. Then I have to decide on a camera. Honestly I don't think I would ever buy an M mount since I rather spend the $1000+ on L glass for my canon. I was so set on a contax IIIa until I realized it doesn't have a lever advance. The Canon seems more and more appealing, though it doesn't seem as readily available as the others.
 
Re: What 35mm rangefinder for a RF newbie?

marlinspike said:

a good rangefinder camera that makes use of good glass
no batteries what-so-ever
built in light meter
rugger and reliable
quiet compared to an SLR
under $500 with a fast 50mm lens
availability of other focal lengths (35mm, 135mm, and something wider than 35mm too) at not super expensive prices
not cumbersome film loading
a rapid advance lever
Richard
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Richard, you say you've never used anything else but SLR cameras. Your list of "must have" requirements IMHO reflects that fact. Some of the features listed are not that important in RF world - at least in my opinion.

So, instead of spending those $500 on a camera you ultimately find difficult to use or you simply don't like,

I have another proposal for you:
- buy a Russian Kiev 4A (no meter) or Kiev 4 (with meter) cheaply, with either Jupiter 8 (50/2) or Helios 103 (53/1.8), and try it out for some time. After a while, you'll see whether this whole RF thing is for you. If you like what you get, you can move on to more expensive cameras and/or lenses. In any case, for very littlle money you'll be able to see which of those requirements you listed are really important. You can always resell the Kiev kit, without losing too much, even if you sell it for less than what you paid.
I wouldn't suggest buying a Leica without ever trying another RF camera before. It's a very good camera, with some amazing lenses available, but it's everything but cheap. And you won't even be sure you'll like it. And there's a high probability you might lose some money reselling it - since you won't know what too lok for when buying it originally, and you could pay more than it's really worth...

As a sidenote, playing the devil's advocate, if your only goal is to move as far from DSLR as possible, I heartily recommend a miniature (2x3) Speed Graphic - it doesn't get more different than that :)
If you want something lighter, get a nice TLR (like Yashica 124) for about $100, and you'll certainly move very far from the DSLR philosophy, into a quite another world. And you'll definitely love the shots with a TLR, particularly if you like B&W.

Denis
 
Well I have use non-SLR's. I've used an old Zeiss Ikon medium format, a minox B, and handled a zeiss ikon contina matic (i would use it but the shutter's stuck and nobody seems to be able to fix it). But, yeah, no rangefinders. I see what you mean about the Kiev being a cheap entry, but at $40-$50 with a lens, how good can that glass be? And it can hardly be a fair representation of rangefinders, can it?
Richard
 
marlinspike said:
....
But, yeah, no rangefinders. I see what you mean about the Kiev being a cheap entry, but at $40-$50 with a lens, how good can that glass be? And it can hardly be a fair representation of rangefinders, can it?
Richard
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Richard, you'd be surprised at the photos you can get with a Kiev and a Jupiter 8 or Jupiter 12. I don't know about Jupiter 9 or 11, since I don't have those, but the two I mentioned are good. Not worse than any consumer-grade Nikkor zooms - and the bokeh is much better, IMHO. :)
Don't think that those are bad just because they are Russian (Ukrainian) made... And some other members of this forum will surely step in, I'm sure :)

In short, give it a try - it's cheap, and it IS a rangefinder. And yes, it does make very good photos. VERY good - provided your lens/camera combo works as it should...

Denis
 
"The Kiev is a Geman camera made in the Soviet Union". I forget exactly where I read that quote, but it sums it up perfectly. The Kiev is a Contax. It was made on equipment sent to Kiev after WWII as part of the German war reparations and even when bearing in mind typical Soviet quality control, it is still an excellent design. As with all older cameras, the key is to find a good one and the Soviets have made that somewhat more difficult with their QC. But buy from a reputable dealer and pay a few dollars more for a known good camera with return privilages and you might well be surprised. I prefer www.fedka.com He's knowledgeable, honest and excellent to work with.

I can't claim to be the same level of photographer as most here, but I do have a few shots from my Kiev 4a Type 2 in my member gallery. It's a really fun, well built camera that gives excellent bang for the buck with a Jupiter 8 lens.

William
 
I see that fedka's stuff is good, but his prices are more than double what these cameras go for on Ebay. Also, now that I know it exists I would have to get a 4 m, not just a 4. Either way, while I understand that it's probably smart to try a cheap rangefinder first, I'm inclined to just get one that I would actually want and take my chances.
Richard
 
Hey Marlinspike, sooooo many choices!

Denis made an excellent point. Shooting with an RF is a whole different approach to photography, and as you've not used an RF up to this time, it's pretty difficult to really know what you'll want in an RF camera until you've given it a spin. For sure, some of your priorities are going to change.

So, in the same vein as Denis's suggestion (and to add even more to your choices), consider getting a good, cheap fixed lens, manual, Japanese RF from the 70's, just to get a feel for this kind of shooting.

Canon, Olympus, Yashica, and Konica all made great cameras of this type. Any fixed-lens RF from these makers, with an f2 or faster lens will be capable of excellent results, and camera shops sell them for a song. Just pick one up and start playing, and take lots of time to consider all the options available to you for something more sophisticated.

cheers...
 
I echo Pherdinand's recommendation of the Retina IIIc. Fits every requirement on your list. They are beautiful cameras, very high quality, very quiet shutter. Film advance lever on the bottom, which is uber-cool. Excellent lenses. The meter on mine is still working well and accurate. The kit mentioned for $150 sounds like a pretty good deal, I paid $120 for the body + 50mm alone, plus ever-ready case.
 
marlinspike said:
... I see what you mean about the Kiev being a cheap entry, but at $40-$50 with a lens, how good can that glass be? And it can hardly be a fair representation of rangefinders, can it?
Richard
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Hey. You're talking about one of my favorite shooters there. I love my Kiev 4. As much as my Retina. You should tread softly when discussing FSU RF's, some of us here react badly when we see them being dissed.
 
Alex-Photo is a reliable dealer in my experience and from what others have said. While I prefer the cleaner lines of the models without the meter, this should be a good one to use.

Walker
 
marlinspike said:
So, if a Kiev is a good way to start, what do you all think of this one?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3855175498&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT
If that doesn't work, it's ebay item 3855175498
Richard
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I have bought several times from Alex-photo and in my experience, the items have been in excellent condition. Very happy with him. I see that this camera is a 1964 body, I have read that quality control at the Arsenal factory was quite good until 1963, when it began to head downhill. Take that for what it's worth, which may not be much. I have a '63 Kiev 4 myself, works perfectly. If I didn't already have one, I would have no hesitation buying this one. Alex says "satisfaction guaranteed" though I have never had to test his return policies.
Good luck!
 
If somebody has a few minutes, could you scan ebay for a good kiev 4 (there are only 26 of them). With such cheap cameras, I'd like to get the cleanest copy possible, but I have a hard time telling which are good and which are not.
Thanks,
Richard
 
Somebody else mentioned Fedka too, but he charges substantially more than what seemingly similar condition cameras go for on Ebay, which is why I'm inclined to take my chances ordering from Russia.
 
marlinspike said:
Somebody else mentioned Fedka too, but he charges substantially more than what seemingly similar condition cameras go for on Ebay, which is why I'm inclined to take my chances ordering from Russia.
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I paid 18 bucks for my Kiev, plus 13 for shipping, from a guy named Sergey who only had 6 feedback ratings... I guess I do take my chances, but I'm not out much if it doesn't work out. I've bought at least 7 cameras from sellers in the FSU, most I've paid for any of them was $40 including shipping, and every one has been fine. Of course what's the disclaimer they use on investment broker commercials? "Past performance does not guarantee future results", or something along those lines.
 
marlinspike said:
Oh, and how can you tell what year it was made?
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On the Kiev, the first two digits of the serial number indicate the year of manufacture. The Kiev serial number is engraved on the accessory shoe.

Walker
 
I was the one who mentioned Yuri. I origonally went with him because my first FSU camera, an Iskra, can be about the biggest crap shoot this side of a Kiev 88 due to its film transport mechanism. That was such an excellent experiance that I had no trouble paying extra for a Kiev 4a from him because I knew that either it would be a good camera or he'd go several extra miles to make sure I got a good one. I am currently saving for a Jupiter 9 from him because of these same issues. Will it cost more? Yes, but it will be a good piece of glass rather than a throw of the dice.

Just my 2 kopeks... :D

William
 
I am also fantasizing about a J9, realizing that i can't afford a sonnar...:)
There are several on tbe 'bay now. William, are you suggesting that the risk with these is too high?
 
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