What difference will Steven Lee's Departure make?

[lns]

Hi guys
if none posted it before, there's now an interesting article by E.Putz:

http://www.imx.nl/photo/viewpoint/leica_angst_and_the_departu.html

That is interesting, although not optimistic. Thanks.

 

[newsgrunt]

I hope things work out for you shooting jpegs. Hopefully you won't regret that decision in the future.

I feel those who shoot raw exclusively will be the ones who may have regrets. I shoot nothing but jpegs out of my D3 excepting assignments where I need to CMA and shoot raw+jpg.

My take is, unless one keeps proprietary software and associated compatible hardware, those raw files, if they survive long term storage, may be rendered useless unless future software is written for them. Jpegs are a standard that will be around for a long time.

The one way around this is Adob'es dng but we know where Canon and Nikon stand on that.

 

[Berliner]

It is in my (limited, somewhat jaded) experience, that ousting a CEO has a very small impact on an organization--long term. Leica’s market placement and viability will not be determined by the guy at the top, but by the R&D and Marketing guys. Lee, like most CEO’s was an empty suit --grossly overpaid and so far removed from day to day operating experience, that he was draining (with multi-million compensation package) corporate resources. What, exactly do they do to justify their salary? This ‘empty suit’ from California, dare I say (in hindsight, no less) was a very poor fit for Leica. Did he even know what one was three years ago? There are people here who know so much more about the history & culture of Leica than this guy ever could…

 

[M. Valdemar]

No, that's absolutely not what I said at all.

Basically, you seem to be advocating for a Canon G9 with a Red Dot on it. Perhaps Leica could make a deal with Canon. Stick a red dot on the G9 and double the price.

 

[ZebGoesZeiss]

This ‘empty suit’ from California, dare I say (in hindsight, no less) was a very poor fit for Leica. Did he even know what one was three years ago? There are people here who know so much more about the history & culture of Leica than this guy ever could…

I, for one, am not sure that Leica needs another historian in charge.

 

[Leicabug]

Leica will go back to her old self, conservative, slow and stubborn. Always late for everything. I remeember it took almost 2 years for Leica to catch the demend for 90ASPH. I really don't think Leica can suvive in the long run anyway because Dr. Kaufmann doesn't have a clue for hiring best person to lead Leica. But Leica is his toy, so he is entitled to do whatever he wants.

 

[DelDavis]

I think you are all crazy. I think the "boutique" approach will lead Leica into the dustbin of history. With $500 DSLRs, why would any sane person spend even $1500 for a DRF?

Becase DSLRs are cumbersome, noisy, ugly, and made of plastic bits that have a tendency to break. I gave mine away (long-term loan to my sister) and bought a Zeiss Ikon and couldn't be happier with my decision. I do miss the convenience of digital, but I knew that would be the case. I'm not rolling in money, and my loved ones no doubt believe I pay obscene prices for my cameras and lenses, but I enjoy good photographic equipment and that's the way it is.

I'm probably in the "young crowd" of sitemistic's imagination. But I would buy a digital rangefinder if it weren't obviously flawed as the M8 reportedly is and at the same time absurdly expensive. If the M8 were $1500 or $2000 cheaper or full-frame and no IR issues I'd probably save up and buy it. I'm convinced it'll happen eventually, but if it doesn't then I'll stick with my analog rangefinder and whatever film is available until I'm as old and grumpy as sitemistic is.

 

[DelDavis]

Let's take an M8 and a 1DsMkIII, stand out in a rainstorm for two hours, and then throw both cameras against a wall. Which one do you think would break? 🙂

Well, I never said anything about waterproof. And I have a tendency not to throw cameras against walls. However, when I turn the "mode" dial I expect it to not cause some internal mechanism to snap, thereby rendering the camera unusable once the battery dies.

I don't have any personal experience with an M8, so I can't comment on its durability.

Anyway, that's why I listed "cumbersome" and "ugly" before "tendency to break", as they are the primary reasons I switched to rangefinders.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

Can someone give me the Coles / Cliff notes version on what or who this Steven K Lee guy was before he showed up at Leica?

I may own Leica gear but I don't follow the Days Of Leica soap opera so can someone bring me up to speed in 100 words or less? 😀

Dave

ROTFLMAO. Dave. Thank god for the voice of sanity. Yeah. Reader's digest format please. Even scrolling through this thread as far as your post makes my head hurt. I feel a little like I've picked up a comic book series in the middle.


FWIW, Leica's marketing has aways been a bit blooey, and yet they've limped along for a decent 80 year run. My sense, opinion only, is that the M8 -- warts and all -- hit close enough to the sweet spot to bridge Leica into the digital age. The soap opera part of this is that I would have thought they'd have rewarded instead of sacked the man at the helm.

So now to read on and see whether there was a trenchant response to Dave's post. Ahh dwama, quote Elmer F.

 

[newsgrunt]

If I had to choose a single camera that could take rough day to day use I would probably take a mf M6/4/3 etc over any pro dslr with it's high tech lenses. Give the new lenses a good knock and the helicoid is bumpy if not gone. WIth an rf, the rangefinder might be off but it'd be alot easier to field adjust that than a fubarred helicoid on an is/vr lens.

I love my new gear for the speed when filing images on the road but it's just a tool. My M's on the other hand are rather like my handcrafted canoe paddles (vs cheap aluminum and plastic ones) , there's an intangible je ne sais quoi for me. A feel in the hand if you will.

Glad to have both choices I gotta tell you however.

 

[newsgrunt]

I think one thing we can all agree on is that pricing has to come down from the stratosphere and put within reach of actual users and not collectors who will put them away in glass cabinets<yeah I'm sterotyping..>. Sell a digital M for $3000 that works flawlessy and they won't be able to keep them in stock.

They need to realize that selling bodies is a way to move the pricier lenses which is where our weaknesses really lie, at least mine does. Price the gear close enough to get buyers to jump from used to new.

 

[newsgrunt]

Yes but I try not to give in to that weakness. I've settled finally, over many years on 21/35/50 and 90. The 50 I'm ambivalent about. I'm a user and wish my black chrome would brass but that ain't gonna happen 8(

 

[slm]

"Becase DSLRs are cumbersome, noisy, ugly, and made of plastic bits that have a tendency to break."

Let's take an M8 and a 1DsMkIII, stand out in a rainstorm for two hours, and then throw both cameras against a wall. Which one do you think would break? 🙂

Easy, both. 😀

 

[Keith]

I'm convinced it'll happen eventually, but if it doesn't then I'll stick with my analog rangefinder and whatever film is available until I'm as old and grumpy as sitemistic is.

Priceless comment ... I'm sure Sitemistic got a chuckle out of that too! 😛

 

[Trius]

My point is that the level of complexity of a DSLR is dependent on your intended use.

This is the complaint I have against DSLRs and digicams. I was playing with an E510 the other day, and of course the first thing I do is put it in Manual exposure mode. Someone had to tell me how to change shutter speed, as the control was not labeled for that. But how to change aperture? I had NFC ... I was seriously miffed. Finally I opened the manual (I think my systems engineer title is being taken away) and found out that you hold down the exposure compensation button and then turn the same control that controls shutter speed. Bah. Give me separate controls, clearly marked. I'm an Olympus fanatic, but bad on Olympus for following the dumb-down crowd.

That said, I admit I am being grumpy (see below) ... If Majoli can put the dumbness aside and produce greatness, so can I, dammit.

I really don't think Leica can suvive in the long run anyway because Dr. Kaufmann doesn't have a clue for hiring best person to lead Leica.

Ah, but he does. And he has hired our own Barrett as CEO, and I am the new Executive VP. If you doubt this, you can read it right here on RFF; it's on the Internet so you can believe it.

I'm probably in the "young crowd" of sitemistic's imagination.

See??? I TOLD you the demographic was there!!! And there are millions more where Del came from! 😀

but if it doesn't then I'll stick with my analog rangefinder and whatever film is available until I'm as old and grumpy as sitemistic is.

That's nothin' ... Think you can even approach being as grumps as me after I've read some of sitemistics factual statements? :angel:

 

[Ade-oh]

If I can throw my thoughts in here... it seems to me that the M8 was misconceived by Leica originally. The task they presumably set themselves was 'build a digital M rangefinder camera' and what they ended up with is the rather odd - and hideously expensive - compromise which is the M8. I've never used an M8 and I don't doubt that they are capable of taking superb pictures but I don't think anyone would seriously claim that it represents a high point in camera design, notwithstanding the faults which have plagued it.

If, on the other hand, Leica had started with a clean slate and set themselves the task of 'building a digital camera with the functionality and quality of the M rangefinder series', I suspect they would have come up with a different and better result. Leica M's are great because of what they are: mechanically simple, well made, film cameras with superb optics. But if Leica are going to survive, they need to move on from the M series. Film isn't going to disappear any time soon, but the future of photography is going to be mainly digital and if Leica wants to regain its position as a serious, innovative player in the photography market it has to look to the future and take their eyes off past glories.

Edited to add: IMHO, the M8 is an evolutionary blind alley and is likely to become a serious millstone round Leica's neck. Whoever takes charge of Leica needs to make the decision to move forwards from the M rangefinders and come up with something new, otherwise Leica are screwed.

 

[Ade-oh]

The Leica M anything has been a millstone around Leicas neck, so much so that they have had to build the same camera over and over for 50 years. Which is why they find themselves where they are now. But Leica has nothing but tradition to separate them in the dogfight with Nikon and Canon. And once that traditional M look and feel is gone, they are just another maker of digital cameras.

I honestly don't think Leica has a future, because they are so specifically defined by their past.

You may well be right.

Having said which... the thing that kept Leica hanging on when Nikon and Canon were effectively defining what a 'pro spec' film SLR should be like was size, build quality and optical quality. Pro spec DSLRs still look and handle much the same as the last of the film SLRs and I can't see any particularly good reason for this to continue to be the case: an innovative and radical designer ought to be able to do what Leica did in the early to mid 20th century and redefine the pro camera, perhaps producing a smaller, high quality, interchangeable autofocus-lens digital camera with exceptional optical quality, rather than the current crop of Nikon and Canon neck-breakers.

But looking realistically at the way things are, I don't suppose it will be Leica who does it.

 

[Socke]

Pro spec DSLRs still look and handle much the same as the last of the film SLRs and I can't see any particularly good reason for this to continue to be the case: an innovative and radical designer ought to be able to do what Leica did in the early to mid 20th century and redefine the pro camera, perhaps producing a smaller, high quality, interchangeable autofocus-lens digital camera with exceptional optica

I think we just watch that happening. With current dSLRs implementing LiveView in one or another way, I think we see the end of the Reflex Mirror.

It may take another five or ten years, but there is a trend.

 

[lns]

The Leica M anything has been a millstone around Leicas neck, so much so that they have had to build the same camera over and over for 50 years. Which is why they find themselves where they are now.

This cracks me up. So if they had never built the M, where exactly would they be right now?

 

[parsec1]

I have to say that you have hit the nail on the head with what you said.
I wonder why Leica cannot see all this?

Obviously because you have hit the nail on the head but missed the heads of the Leica Executives.