What difference will Steven Lee's Departure make?

[keithwms]

Cosina needs to get their mits on the contract to make the Fuji folder.

 

[keithwms]

Hmm if I had $8k to spend it would be on a ZD back, which I would then mount on about five of the cameras I currently own.

Interchangeable backs=the future. Leica had the idea, then gave it up.

 

[Riccis]

I don't like to get into debates like this one, but IMHO a digital Leica M is still very appealing to professionals.

A lot of my peers (wedding photographers) have approached me and shown great interest in the M8, while some of them have bought one to complement their DSLRs, the majority are waiting for some of the outstanding problems to be corrected and for the introduction of a sensor (FF or not) that yields better quality files at higher ISOs... This is something that I have mentioned to Christian Erhardt before...

Regards,

Riccis

 

[kevin m]

Leica could sell any well designed small camera, that is what they are known for.

Bingo. Forget the M for a moment. Most digital P&S cameras are crap. Crappy little buttons, crappy menus, etc.. If Leica were to make a simple/intuitive/retro small-sensor digital camera to compete with the Ricoh GR-D they could clean up.

And the M would be fine at its current price point if it had the features pros come to expect. In addition to the dual memory cards, iso dial, etc., that I mentioned before, they should also build a grip into the body both as a concession to ergonomics, and to signal that they've finally left 1954 in the rear view mirror.

 

[jbf]

Very well put, Fred.


That is the issue itself. Make a camera that sells and is innovative (competitive as well) to keep leica alive and profitable. All the while it can continue it's more traditional niche market products.

Have your cake and eat it too.


Notice I didnt say it had to have a digital rangefinder that would sell like hot cakes. Just have a product that WILL sell so that those of us who do enjoy traditional M's and rangefinders (be it digital or otherwise) can still buy them (m rangefinders, etc)




Its alla bout keeping leica profitable and making money on an innovative and new product while still being able to have its seperate niche market as well.

 

[Nando]

A long time ago, I realized that I would never become as good a driver as Michael Schumacher. I gave up on that but I didn't give up on improving myself as a driver. And the best way is with a car that does exactly what the driver commands it to do through manual controls. As a driving enthusiast (first and foremost - automobile enthusiast second), I can say that there is no sweeter or more satisfying feeling then when you know you nailed that smooth, perfect heal-and-toe downshift into a corner, following the best line on through and powering out onto a straight. Especially when becoming consistent after endless practise. This is something that no electronic aid can do for me.

I find a similar thing that find appealing about manual cameras is that it leaves it completely up to me to make all the decisions. When I see the gradual improvement in my photographs, from both the technical and artistic sides, I know for sure that I'm improving. I find this very satisfying. One thing that I find appealing in Leica is that the camera and lenses are (supposed to be) uncompromising in performance. So in using them, there is no excuses for me if I take a bad shots. I will no longer have to worry about the equipment - its performance should always exceed my skills and it also will last longer than me. So now I just have to work on improving my skills and training my eye. It's like if you would buy a Porsche 911 GT1 after spending a half your life driving a simple sedan. You can't expect to get in that car and lap the Nurburgring in less than 10 seconds the first time out. However, you don't have to worry about the car not being capable of doing that - all you have to do now is focus on improving yourself as a driver.

I think that one way that Leica can differentiate its products from the typical autoeverything cameras is that it leaves everything to the photographer. They can perhaps capitalize on the notion that mastering a manual camera separates the men from the boys, so to speak. It also fosters the feeling of transparency making the Leica really the TRUE "optical extension of my eye" as HCB put it.

 

[visiondr]

There are rangefinders and "rangefinders". Nothing is set in stone for a clever company.

Apple saw that they had a disaster in the making with their computers, they did an abrupt about-face and switched from PowerPC chips to Intel chips.

Everyone knew you "couldn't have an Intel chip in a Mac". Suddenly, they're selling hundreds of thousands of them a month.

What young kid would pay $500 for a cell phone? Or $400 for a fancy MP3 player? Oops.....MILLIONS of them......

For the record, Apple's improved fortunes began waaaayyy before the switch to Intel. OSX and the cool form factor of the iMac and iPod preceded the processor switch by years. Just look at the stock price as a guide to Apple's fortunes. I'm not saying the Intel switch wasn't important, but it wasn't a deal maker.

 

[Jamie Pillers]

Who's next?

Who's next?

If Leica is looking for someone to fill the top spot, and someone that can figure out a way for Leica to turn it around... I can think of no better name than Kobayashi. 😀

 

[MichaelHarris]

As long as I'm in line for the sapphire eyepiece for my Zeiss Ikon ZM i'm cool. It's only going to cost me 2300 dollars and will keep the ZM up to date for weeks to come.

 

[Ororaro]

Pff!

I'm not an expert and I don't wanna be an expert on what is and what should Leica be. Especially not if it involves being chauvinistic, rude and foremost condescending.

Who cares if people at Leica USA are "officially" happy about it.

My unexpert and proud opinion is Leica is not doing bad these days.

 

[Sam N]

To be fair, Leica still does have a good image among younger photography enthusiasts (myself included). Many of my peers drive cars with manual transmissions and still enjoy using their K1000s, TLRs, and the like. I sold some photography gear to a guy in his early 20s who showed up with an M6 around his neck. Many papparazzi in LA keep Leicas in their bags alongside their DSLRs and Telezooms. The market is niche, but it does exist and it's comprised of regular hobbyists or entusiasts. Many of these people already use DSLRs. If they got a digital RF, it would play second fiddle to their admittedly much more versatile SLR. To these people, it doesn't make sense to pay FAR more for an RF than a similar SLR.

For example, I'd love to own an R-D1, but the value per dollar is TERRIBLE compared to my 40D (or new DSLR really). Why would I spend $2000 on an outdated and relatively unreliable camera with little to no repair support when I can get a new camera that is better in every way for $1100? The same applies to the M8.

Leica is known for making "the best", but non-devotees don't want to pay thousands for one lens. Maybe Leica isn't the right company to make this "populaire" camera that so many people want.

Not for those long-time M users for whom cropping in post is as distasteful as cropping under the enlarger. I will confirm what Harry Lime says, I have heard complaints from photojournalists who bought them, some have kept the camera but point to the framelines as the biggest probelm, other have sold them.

My statement was a response to a comment about pros who do not use M cameras due to viewfinder inaccuracy. They can crop while the hardcore M users who don't like cropping can not crop. Everybody wins.

 

[veraikon]

Some background from the german online journal "photoscala"

Nachdem ja nun nicht alle Ideen Lees schlecht waren - die preiswerten Summarit-M-Objekive etwa, aber auch die angedeuteten Leica-Vollformatkameras im M- und R-Sektor sowie ein preiswertere M-Messsucherkamera - sind vor allem menschliche bzw. Management- und Führungsdifferenzen als Grund für den plötzlichen Rausschmiss zu vermuten.

So wurden nach unseren Informationen Mitte 2007 mindestens sechs Mitarbeiter aus dem mittleren Management entlassen, zum Teil wurde ihnen fristlos, zum Teil fristgerecht zum Jahresende, gekündigt. Das betraf leitende Positionen in Forschung, Produktion, Optik und Kommunikation. Und Leica Pressechef Gero Furchheim verschwand im Laufe des Jahres 2007 stillschweigend von der Bühne - Differenzen um die Leica World, lange überfällig, dann eingestellt, waren wohl der vorgeschobene Grund.

http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-feuert-Lee

Interessting in my view is the second part. It tells us that in middle of 2007 at least 6 leading persons in the optics , research and communication department were dismissed by Mr. Lee. The author sugest that there were severe personal differences. For a small company like Leica ist a strong bleeding.

 

[c.poulton]

the fan base consists of aging middle aged mental cases with midlife crises and fetishistic tendencies.

Oh bummer - that's me!!!😱 😱 😱

 

[Al Patterson]

Im thinking the same. It seems like leica dealers lives a life in slow motion. Or at least over here. I wouldnt be surprised if life at Solms is slow motion as well. Maybe they where pissed cause they couldnt have cameras for 3 months for repair. Leica needs a push in the ass.

How true. Here in the USA we'd say "kick", rather than "push". Push sounds dirty to us puritans over here... 😉

It does remind me of a joke I won't post on this site though...

 

[c.poulton]

Just because a kid will pay $500 for a cell phone doesn't mean he would pay it for a manual focus rangefinder camera. That just doesn't make sense.

If a kid (or their parent's more likely) can spend upwards of $2,000 on an apple macbook air, then they could spend that on a 'cool' Leica. I also beleive that manual focus has a cachet all of it's own. Just IMHO...

 

[c.poulton]

Sitemistic,

Very true, but I beleive there is still a substantial market for a sub-$2,000 RF "mini-leica" with a set of low price M-mount lenses (Cosina?) that either a kid get's bought for them by more well-to-do parents, or perhaps they buy them with their first or second year's paycheck. When I write 'kid' I actually mean young adult - graduate (creative?) with a reasonable job & pay-check at the end of the month. How else does Apple sell so many of their laptops when you can still pick up a PC laptop for half the price?

 

[Roger Hicks]

Those of us who play with expensive rangefinder cameras are generally not living in the payday to payday world "most" people live in.

And, of course, not all of us just play with them. By the time I bought my first new Leica and first new Leica lens, a bit over a quarter of a century ago, I'd already been using Leicas for a decade or more; the difference was that the new ones could be offset against tax, because they were part of my earning a living.

Which makes them, to me, quite interesting. Relatively few pure luxuries are also used professionally as the tools of a trade, though I suppose Rolls Royce wedding cars -- jumped-up taxis -- are similar in some ways.

One other thing that has just occurred to me. We are constantly being assured that the number of people who use Leicas professionally is insignificant. It would however be interesting to know the percentage of Leicas being used professionally versus the percentage of 'pro' SLRs/DSLRs used professionally.

I don't think there's any way of obtaining such figures, because no-one gathers them. But I do remember, years ago, a Linhof dealer estimating that sales were split about 50/50 between very rich amateurs and professionals. Given how often Linhofs are dismissed as "dentists' cameras", I found that figure quite interesting.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Terao]

Well, the kids don't have a great awareness, but there is potential there. The sticking a camera in the hands of celebs plan does work to a certain extent (although not helped when Brad also turns up at Venice with a Lomo!) but they need to get the Dot out there. The Panasonic compact tie-up does work, plenty of people buy a Digilux over the identical Panasonic model because of the name. If it was the same price as the Panasonic they'd sell a ton more (plug some stuff into firmware that differentiates the Leica version but costs nothing to add).

Art certainly matters so commissioning Banksy or Shephard Fairey or some other youth art icon to do something Leica-related would generate a ton of interest.

We've been talking about Apple, why not tie-in with them? Has been talk for a while about Apple making the iCamera although I don't see why they would. How about getting the Dot on the back of the next-gen iPhone camera? Sony & Nokia make a big deal about the "Zeiss" lens in their cameraphones. If they're going to start getting the kids awareness of the brand (quality worth paying for) then they need to get a Leica badge on a cameraphone. The recent Kodak sensor announcements would be an ideal opportunity to grab if they turn out to produce lower-noise higher-quality low-light images. Social photography (noisy blurred pics of your mates in the bar) is what the kids do, and they use their cameraphones to do it. If you suddenly make it possible to get a better shot of that hot chick leaning on the bar over there you'll get a lot of interest. And of course low-light social photography remains true to the brand values in some ways - the compact high quality discreet light camera Barnack was after 90 years ago...

 

[breathstealer]

Maybe you guys should actually talk to some of these "kids" you're always referring to 🙂

I'm a high school senior, so I hope that's close enough. I've used my Canon 7 quite a few times at school, and get quite a bit of "oh wow how old is that" and "is that a Leica?", and lots of people are interested in learning more about the camera.

It tends to go downhill from there. "Wait, you can't zoom? You have to focus manually? It's so heavy! Why would you use something like that, you have a digital camera."

I can't see a single one of my classmates ever buying a manual focus digital rangefinder. Even my DSLR toting friends who often manual focus their lenses aren't particularly interested in rangefinders, and especially not at Leica prices. Note that these are the kids whose parents buy them Macbooks and so on - they could probably afford a hypothetical Leica, but there's no reason for them to want one. Apple has successfully persuaded that you are getting your money's worth when you pay extra for a Mac, but I can't imagine Leica persuading us to pay extra to lose AF and zooming and a screen.

I guess I'm the only one who stays up at night dreaming about the ressurection of the RD-1.

 

[Trius]

One other thing that has just occurred to me. We are constantly being assured that the number of people who use Leicas professionally is insignificant. It would however be interesting to know the percentage of Leicas being used professionally versus the percentage of 'pro' SLRs/DSLRs used professionally.

I don't think there's any way of obtaining such figures, because no-one gathers them. But I do remember, years ago, a Linhof dealer estimating that sales were split about 50/50 between very rich amateurs and professionals. Given how often Linhofs are dismissed as "dentists' cameras", I found that figure quite interesting.

Cheers,

Roger

This has been a pretty interesting discussion, if somewhat contentious at times, but that's part of the RFF family, ethos, eh?

Roger, this is a really, really good point. It's not unique to Xerox, but when I worked there we had a value called 'MBF' ... managing by facts. I would love to have the data that you suggest; I think it might be surprising to some.

Good marketing is based on good research, not just sexy campaigns and huge Flash demos (See ya, Mr. Lee!) ... and I suspect M.Valdemar is coming from this perspective.

breathstealer points out that in his particular demographic (i.e., his age group and the peers at his particular school) there is a "cool" factor to his Canon 7, but he doesn't think there are any takers for a manual RF camera with no zoom. That's good information, even if it is limited in its scope. (Hey, do they know the Canon has a meter that might not work, much less be accurate or have 2 dozen scene modes? Horror!)

Chris' point is that the target demographic needs defining, and that sitemistic's conclusions are based on a different or ill-defined demographic.