What difference will Steven Lee's Departure make?

[kross]

Lee probably advocated changes for the company to move forward that the old guards (aka supervisory board) deem too radical. My friends who work in a german firm faced similar problem. Heard that their former CEO who wanted to move their hq out of Germany to avoid high tax rate got booted out becoz of his radical ideas to expand & advance the company. Well, most german companies are still very conservative...:-/

 

[slm]

So Leica should stick their name on a small, cool camera as a means of survival? O.K. What's the price point and what specific features should this camera have? It's target market it seems would be young people whom we've determined are looking for an "image" camera at a student price. Are we looking at a $200 autofocus p&s on which to display the Red Dot, or a $1,000 mini-leica (for which there would have to be a low priced line of lenses - say in the $250 dollar range)? Digital or film? Interchangeable lens?

Nope, Leica should not stick their name on a small, cool camera. But they should be making small cool cameras that would appeal to a broader market. They need that to support and justify their more advanced models, but at the same time, protect the excellence and prestige associated with the Leica brand. So, IMO, a new brand should be created, maybe even resurrecting something from the past a la Voigtlander (if there is one). I would still make it clear though, that it's "A Leica company". Use the strength of the parent brand.

 

[slm]

My conclusion, however clouded it might be, is simple. There is no complex demographic for manual focus rangefinder cameras. There are a relatively few of us, mostly middle aged or older, who enjoy using manual rangefinder cameras. That is the demographic. It there is any change in that demographic it will be downward as those of us with the time and money to buy and use them die off. In this sense, Leica is making the right decisions about product. Even if they can't survive into the future doing it.

Their website, however, seems to now be aimed at a demographic that isn't interested in their product. Which seems a bit bipolar to me.

I guess you're describing the current users of Leica cameras (in general).
But I can confirm, their products are appealing to a lot of people, outside that demographic.

 

[Trius]

That is the demographic.

And the raw data for that "fact" is on which website? 😉

 

[slm]

Well, the new Corvette 06 ZR1 is appealing to me, I'm part of their demographic (I own a Corvette), but $100,000 for a car is outside my budget. Do you think if Leica produced a mass market Leica it would still be as appealing outside the demographic?

Of course ! Leica could produce a mass market camera(s) (doesn't have to be a rangefinder). But producing a mass market Leica would "dilute" the brand. Hence my previous post for a new brand (Brand XYZ, A Leica company). I think we both agree that Leica having a line of good quality, volume cameras would make it a stronger company, and allow it to continue developing the more expensive Leica brand line.

 

[aizan]

assuming this is not made by leica:

low-end model
fixed 35/2.8 equiv. lens (interchangeable manual focus lenses, yeah right!) with image stabilization
no built in grip, or very shallow one (think contax t2/t3, or canon g9)
plastic covers, no weather sealing
$500

high-end model
fixed 35/2 equiv. lens with image stabilization
larger grip (think hexar af)
magnesium covers, weather sealing
$1000
(if leica makes this one, though a panasonic rebrand is more likely, double the price.)

 

[photogdave]

You are proposing the same concept of asking all those young people to give up their Ipods and return to a cassette Walkman.

Many (thousands) of young people are buying turntables and records IN ADDITION to owning their iPods. I just read an article about it in time.
I'm also one of them. Just not so young!

 

[photogdave]

You are proposing the same concept of asking all those young people to give up their Ipods and return to a cassette Walkman.

Many (thousands) of young people are buying turntables and records IN ADDITION to owning their iPods. I just read an article about it in Time.
I'm also one of them. Just not so young! 😉

 

[slm]

assuming this is not made by leica:

low-end model
fixed 35/2.8 equiv. lens (interchangeable manual focus lenses, yeah right!) with image stabilization
no built in grip, or very shallow one (think contax t2/t3, or canon g9)
plastic covers, no weather sealing
$500

high-end model
fixed 35/2 equiv. lens with image stabilization
larger grip (think hexar af)
magnesium covers, weather sealing
$1000
(if leica makes this one, though a panasonic rebrand is more likely, double the price.)

Yup, I like this thinking (but doesn't have to be a rangefinder). They should be playing in (and getting revenue from) the $200 - $1000 market segment (but not as Leica). Unfortunately the panasonic rebrand doesn't give them revenue (at least, I don't think it does). They do get some revenue from the licensing of the Leica lens brand for higher end panasonic cameras, and thats a good thing.

 

[Roger Hicks]

It's not unique to Xerox, but when I worked there we had a value called 'MBF' ... managing by facts.

Well, you know the old saying: "My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts!"

I don't know the facts. I'm not sure anyone does. I'm not sure of the value of many of them, even if we knew them. But as you say, we might do well with a few more of them on this thread. Including, again as you point out, those from our young friend with his Canon.

The reaction of his chums is about what I would have expected, but the big difference is, I'd have been guessing, while he's telling us what he's seen.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Mackinaw]

No doubt that Leica has got to do something to attract the younger crowd. Whenever I look at a group photo of one of the LHSA gatherings, I'm dismayed by all of the greybeards in the crowd. Nobody under 50 that I can see, which ain't good.

Jim B.

 

[slm]

Hmmm. Maybe I'll use my $600 rebate check to corner the market on cassette walkmans. Won't boost the economy much, but I will be rich in the future. 🙂

Is this in response to my posting(s) ? If so, I don't get it.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Fred, all you can do is state your background and hope for the best. This is the internet, not a classroom. 😀

All the "you suck" and "that sucks" sure make it seem like that. 🙄

One thing is certain: a thread with the word "Leica" or related to it will have the you-can-bet-your-house comments about "expensive", "beginning of the end", "Nikon", and "Canon".

Always comparing a Harley Davidson to a Chevy Suburban and how it just doesn't satisfy the iPod-playing cup-holder in everyone is an amusing sight.

But before I get paper balls thrown from the back row, I'll finish by saying: cheeseburger-style management doesn't play well in artisan-centered cultures.

 

[Photon-hunter]

aizan, the average young adult would not (most could not) pay $2,000 for a digital camera of any kind, much less a rangefinder. That just bears no relationship to reality.

In my very own city, hundreds of "young adults" are purchasing EVERY WEEK photographic kits that cost a couple thousand EUROS. Buy a Canon 40D, stack a 24-105 and a prime or a tele, throw in a couple compact flash cards and a few accesories and, voila!! The streets are full of equipment that is vastly superior in quality and price to the images that will ever be produced with it...How can you claim to know what bears relationship with reality when the evident is prooving you wrong??

Erik.

PS: Get leica to Make a point and shoot with specs similar to those in the D-Lux3,a fast lens (even a prime in the 28-35 range) give it an M3 or M7 look(maybe slightly smaller) , add a few fancy things and that toghether with a propper marketing campaign claiming that they bring the "Barnack era" into digital and that will surely make the streets flooded with the thing.

Just my 2 cents...(of an euro).

 

[breathstealer]

In my very own city, hundreds of "young adults" are purchasing EVERY WEEK photographic kits that cost a couple thousand EUROS. Buy a Canon 40D, stack a 24-105 and a prime or a tele, throw in a couple compact flash cards and a few accesories and, voila!!

Yup, that's exactly true. Kids like us are buying up DSLRs like hotcakes, and often spending way more than they need to take good pictures with. But that's because a 24-105 is the only lens you'll need for most situations, it autofocuses, and the 40D has a pop-up flash so you can take shots of your friend's funny faces in dark restaurants while on full-auto mode.

Good luck selling $2000 cameras that don't do any of that to the youth of today.

Trius: The ones who know what a light meter is know that the one on my Canon is shot, and chuckle every time I have to ask one of them to take a reading for me. But they're intrigued by the fact that it "works" without a battery. Vintage mystique is all well and good when you're not paying for it.

Interestingly, two of my DSLR owning friends use 50/1.4s (Nikkor AI-s and Pentax SMC), so maybe manual focus isn't a total lost cause. But those come out in really low light, or when working with static subjects - the social shooting that most cameras are used for today almost demands AF and flash.

 

[Trius]

Well, long before AF was a twinkle in Minolta's eye, people shot flash (or not) and/or fast lenses in social scenes and made great pictures. Hyperfocal pre-focusing is not restricted to old kit, however. Which brings me back to my main contention.

Leica has a great brand, it can only be killed by Leica AG itself, which they seem to be trying to do. Is it any wonder the broader market is confused? As someone else posted, Leica was long known as value for money because, in spite of its higher price, the quality and ruggedness were there, making it a valued tool of many types of photographers. When the Nikon F hit the seen for photojournalism, Leicas response was muddled, then they went boutique. So they tried to shift the brand, and people (other than Leicaphiles) were confused.

Leica needs to re-brand as a photographer's tool, not a dilettante's possession. This will take careful strategy, great execution and the capital to see it through.

 

[Trius]

Then young adults in your city have a lot more disposable income than in my neck of the woods. I guess easy credit is seductive.

Jeeze, sitemistic, the assumptions you often make ("I guess easy credit is seducitve.") are often astounding.

 

[Trius]

I don't know. We need to get the real numbers. Remember ... MBF.

 

[kevin m]

Leica was long known as value for money because, in spite of its higher price, the quality and ruggedness were there, making it a valued tool of many types of photographers....Leica needs to re-brand as a photographer's tool, not a dilettante's possession. This will take careful strategy, great execution and the capital to see it through.

Another good point. There have been several in this thread, despite what the naysayers think.

I always thought the film M bodies, with the exception of the collectibles, were actually good values, particularly used. The only real limitation I found, relative to using a film SLR, was the 1/60th flash sync. But the M8 just doesn't compare, value-wise, to DSLR's in the same way. Collectors and hobbyists have always been a large part of the Leica market, and there's nothing wrong with that within reason, but with the M8 they seem to have taken over entirely, forcing the company to forever look to the past. Despite the success of the M8 in the short-term, I don't think that's a winning strategy in the long haul, and I really hope they'll be around for the long haul. 🙂

 

[hlockwood]

SNIP

Erik.

PS: Get leica to Make a point and shoot with specs similar to those in the D-Lux3,a fast lens (even a prime in the 28-35 range) give it an M3 or M7 look(maybe slightly smaller) , add a few fancy things and that toghether with a propper marketing campaign claiming that they bring the "Barnack era" into digital and that will surely make the streets flooded with the thing.

Just my 2 cents...(of an euro).

I think my newly acquired Canon G9 comes pretty close to that.

Harry