what do you want rff to be?

Rodchenko said:
I'm a bit younger than you two. I came to maturity in the 80s in Derby and Sheffield, experiencing the shutdown of steel and engineering companies, the miners strike, and grinding poverty first hand, as well as grassroots politics, the growth of new communities, the green and peace movements etc. Politics is just a normal part of everything, and it is hard to imagine conversations which don't include some politics at least.

For example, I work in the NHS, and, every day, we are struggling with the effects of cuts. My life at work, at home, with friends, and travelling on the roads on my bike is suffused with politics, of course it is, and it would be really weird not to acknowledge that.

Every photograph I take has a political aspect, even if it is not made with a political or campaigning intent, there is a context to the selection of every image. Undoubtedly.

I admit, as a Northerner, I see politics rather differently from someone in a true blue area (though the safest seat in the UK for the Tories is in North Yorkshire, my home county, to our eternal shame). But being allowed to air those differences through words and images can enhance understanding and cut through divisions.
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My experience too more or less, but in the 60s for me ... Grammar School exposed me to the other side of the coin, even if the uniform was a bit of a brick-magnet were I lived ... I don't always understand why people are so partisan online sometimes
 
Rodchenko said:
I'm a bit younger than you two. I came to maturity in the 80s in Derby and Sheffield, experiencing the shutdown of steel and engineering companies, the miners strike, and grinding poverty first hand, as well as grassroots politics, the growth of new communities, the green and peace movements etc. Politics is just a normal part of everything, and it is hard to imagine conversations which don't include some politics at least.

For example, I work in the NHS, and, every day, we are struggling with the effects of cuts. My life at work, at home, with friends, and travelling on the roads on my bike is suffused with politics, of course it is, and it would be really weird not to acknowledge that.

Every photograph I take has a political aspect, even if it is not made with a political or campaigning intent, there is a context to the selection of every image. Undoubtedly.

I admit, as a Northerner, I see politics rather differently from someone in a true blue area (though the safest seat in the UK for the Tories is in North Yorkshire, my home county, to our eternal shame). But being allowed to air those differences through words and images can enhance understanding and cut through divisions.
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I agree and if posts were as measured as this is it could ,in my opinion , only enhance the forum.
Sadly some aren`t.
As a matter of record , I`m a northerner too and have spent my entire career in the public sector (health ).
 
I can't help reading through this thread and seeing it as a fairly accurate representation of RFF as a whole.
One or two comments taken as a barb whether meant as such or not, lots of differing opinions and beliefs that originate from the various experiences and cultures we have been party to as individuals. On the whole these are expressed with some level of care and thought for an international audience as well as following the old maxim of treating others as we wish to be treated. The result appears to be that with discussion dissenting voices come closer together, in understanding if not in agreement. Can we realistically ask for more from such a diverse group of people?

A quick comment on the political aspect of Brits that has become a slight side issue. My great grandmother on the 'posh' southern side of my family was a part of the Suffragette movement and my great grandmother on my Geordie (NE England) side of the family was the real power and motivator behind my great grandfather's Miner's Union work. I think, as thegman said, the only difference now is young people are less interested in party politics; social politics is as vehemently debated as ever.
 
Sparrow said:
I don't always understand why people are so partisan online sometimes
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I think some photographers can be very partisan, just look at places like apug where although there is a fantastic wealth of knowledge amongst its userbase, a lot of 'helpful' responses come off as being rude in tone or untolerant to other approaches or philosophies. Perhaps this is a symptom of the nature of photography, where with technical processes there are areas where things are very black and white (no pun intended), as well as probably attracting people of a technical mind.

I think as mentioned above, the anonymity of the web then only enables the righteous-minded or angry to abandon any cloak of civility online. At least thats my take on it, plus think a lot of the anger seen on the web tends to be from those defending themselves from what they see as an affront to the beliefs/ choices/ way of life.

Moderation is necessary I think, and a tough gig. As in sport though, my favourite referees are the ones who know use the red card only when absolutely needed, and at their best are a key element of the collaborative dance with the players to ensure the game reaches its highest potential. No one wants a game that ends with only half the players, yet at the same time no one wants one that descends into chaos. Thats key for me, I guess, and a tough balance.
 
Simple: Gear and Photography and everything in between. I am a gearhead i like the gear stuff. Anything i don't like i don't click. Simple.
 
OurManInTangier said:
I can't help reading through this thread and seeing it as a fairly accurate representation of RFF as a whole.
One or two comments taken as a barb whether meant as such or not, lots of differing opinions and beliefs that originate from the various experiences and cultures we have been party to as individuals. On the whole these are expressed with some level of care and thought for an international audience as well as following the old maxim of treating others as we wish to be treated. The result appears to be that with discussion dissenting voices come closer together, in understanding if not in agreement. Can we realistically ask for more from such a diverse group of people?

A quick comment on the political aspect of Brits that has become a slight side issue. My great grandmother on the 'posh' southern side of my family was a part of the Suffragette movement and my great grandmother on my Geordie (NE England) side of the family was the real power and motivator behind my great grandfather's Miner's Union work. I think, as thegman said, the only difference now is young people are less interested in party politics; social politics is as vehemently debated as ever.
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Dear Simon,

Fascinating family history, by the way. But then, most family histories are. My great-great grandfather was a very, very rich man -- the owner of a major iron foundry -- who lost his money on the grand scale, as was far easier in Victorian England. His daughter Flo (my great-grandmother) joined the Party in 1917. Her children (my grandmother, aunts and uncles) were hard-left socialists -- the sort that regarded Wedgie Benn as a dangerous revisionist -- and my father started out on the left of the Conservative Party and now (at 86 next week) is on the right of it. And I joined the Young Liberals at sixteen (partly because there were girls there).

Cheers,

R.
 
back alley said:
i would love more photo related discussions here but the bag threads seem much more popular for some reason.

it is easier to say i don't like this bag than to say i don't like this image...i guess.
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Bags, equipment are "safe" subjects open for discussion. To discuss or critique someone's image is less so. I feel that sometimes people are a bit too "nice" in their discussions of someone's images. A little open criticism, within reason, can go long way.

Politics, as Roger said, is part of life. To insult someone by their religious, ethnic background, etc., should not be tolerated, especially in this day and age. I am sorry, but I think those who post hate and vitrol, should be banned from this site. There are plenty of other forums on the internet for them to voice their feeble comments.
 
Murchu said:
I think some photographers can be very partisan, just look at places like apug where although there is a fantastic wealth of knowledge amongst its userbase, a lot of 'helpful' responses come off as being rude in tone or untolerant to other approaches or philosophies. Perhaps this is a symptom of the nature of photography, where with technical processes there are areas where things are very black and white (no pun intended), as well as probably attracting people of a technical mind.

I think as mentioned above, the anonymity of the web then only enables the righteous-minded or angry to abandon any cloak of civility online. At least thats my take on it, plus think a lot of the anger seen on the web tends to be from those defending themselves from what they see as an affront to the beliefs/ choices/ way of life.

Moderation is necessary I think, and a tough gig. As in sport though, my favourite referees are the ones who know use the red card only when absolutely needed, and at their best are a key element of the collaborative dance with the players to ensure the game reaches its highest potential. No one wants a game that ends with only half the players, yet at the same time no one wants one that descends into chaos. Thats key for me, I guess, and a tough balance.
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... well that's what I'm saying, I'm not responsible for any of that, I go by my real name and just speak my mind and try to be truthful ... I've never understood why folk pay such attention to these anonymous people
 
just look at places like apug where although there is a fantastic wealth of knowledge amongst its userbase, a lot of 'helpful' responses come off as being rude in tone or untolerant to other approaches or philosophies. Perhaps this is a symptom of the nature of photography, where with technical processes there are areas where things are very black and white (no pun intended), as well as probably attracting people of a technical mind.
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As someone who has passed through a lot of industries, including being a working photographer and journalist, I feel you may have raised a very important point.

For the last thirty plus years, I've been heavily involved in programming, often at the hard engineering end of the spectrum but also taking in all sorts of other areas. I've often noticed that "techies", please note the inverted commas, feel that the more cryptic and acerbic they are, the greater their status.

One of the nicest things about RFF is that this behaviour is nothing like so prevalent as on other forums, I think because it gets treated with amusement and the gentlest of mickey taking. Yet people will make a lot of effort to advise and support. That, I believe, is an outcome of the age spread, with older and sometimes wiser heads calming things down when they threaten to warm up.

In short, RFF is what I call a civilised place. I vote that we keep it just as it is as long as we can.
 
When I joined, back in the olden days, it was 99% Rfs and 99.8% film. The Contax G2 was only grudgingly accepted as a valid tool and the Epson R-D1 was thought of as a passing fad of little interest. RFF was a closer knit community then, a product of size and narrow interest (the gear and film rather than the individual beliefs). Threads were generally good natured although there were one or two major trolls (anyone remember Frank - not FrankS). The leica M8 burst into the forum and the membership increased dramatically and tolerance levels diminished, primarily as a result of the film versus digital threads. More general interests (gear) became acceptable and we even embraced SLRs :eek: There were rarely any discussions about politics or religion, but when there were, they usually descended into vitriolic personal exchanges and expulsions. I can do without the politics and the religion, but have no problem if discussions are civil. Invariably they start out fine but end in the same place with polarised views and a lack of understanding. Arguing about semantics is meaningless ;). I like it as it is, anything in moderation.
 
I was reading this forum (not posting) when Frank was here. It astounded me then (and still does) that someone would go to such lengths as to set up a parody website just to gain revenge on those he thought had wronged him. Much worse than anything happening now.

RFF was the source of good info on some rangefinder cameras I had purchased way back then, and remains a great source of gear insight as well as general reading in photography. A big thanks to the moderators for keeping things from getting out of hand!
 
Arguing that discussions about politics and religion end up as slanging matches, and should therefore be banned as soon as possible, is a bit like saying we all die and therefore nothing we do is of any consequence. It's not the end that necessarily matters: it's the exchange of views on the way. Barring exchanges of views is... well, it's what Erdogan is trying to do in Turkey at the moment.

Of course Stephen can ban anything he likes. It's his forum. But given that the title of this thread is "What do you want RFF to be", this is a good thread to discuss the role of politics in everything, including photography. "Every act is a political act" including restricting photography to kittens and coffee cups...

Cheers,

R.
 
Overall, the RFF has kept my interest for quite a while now and this is, for me, entirely because of the diverse group of people and their opinions.
I certainly do not agree with all of those opinions nor do I expect that they would agree with mine.

I do have strong opinions on, well most things, in fact but I have gained enough perspective to know that my opinions are not facts.
I have learned much from the "gear" threads but I have learned a bit more from the many "image" threads.

So, what do I want RFF to be?
Mostly what it is now, actually. Inclusive as broadly as possible, exclusive only where necessary*, and ongoing.

On a practical note, I wonder if simply disabling the "quick reply" button would ameliorate much of the excess?
Rob


*I do remember that other Frank and that's an example of necessary exclusion, I think.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Arguing that discussions about politics and religion end up as slanging matches, and should therefore be banned as soon as possible, is a bit like saying we all die and therefore nothing we do is of any consequence. It's not the end that necessarily matters: it's the exchange of views on the way. Barring exchanges of views is... well, it's what Erdogan is trying to do in Turkey at the moment.

Of course Stephen can ban anything he likes. It's his forum. But given that the title of this thread is "What do you want RFF to be", this is a good thread to discuss the role of politics in everything, including photography. "Every act is a political act" including restricting photography to kittens and coffee cups...

Cheers,

R.
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There is a very wide gulf between political discussions and "kittens and coffee cups," let's be honest. It doesn't have to be, nor is it, that extreme. Asking, or even insisting, that political discussions (which almost immediately devolve into arguments and hurt feelings) be a minimal presence here does not dumb-down RFF to kittens and coffee cups.

Plain and simple, political discourse makes many uncomfortable, including most of the people I know in my life, and if too many feel uncomfortable and don't come here any longer, that is a bad thing for those of us who enjoy all of the other aspects of RFF.

I also do not in any way agree that politics is at the core of photography. Discussing politics for politics' sake...I get enough of that everywhere else--and believe me, I'm a politics junkie. But I don't come here for that and would be really turned off it ended up being that way. And from the 5 pages of responses, it's very clear that the overwhelming majority of members don't want that either.

In other words, if forced to choose between politics or kittens and coffee cups on RFF, I'm choosing the latter.
 
Good things about RFF:

1) I have never had a technical question that did not receive a helpful response on RFF. Please do not discourage people from being 'gear heads'. As a whole our society suffers from a lack of technical knowledge. (Too many people imagine they are 'advanced' because they have a smart phone - for all they know it runs on vacuum tubes.)

2) I like the gallery very much, many contributors provide images that set a high standard.

3) People on the forum are intelligent and opinionated, and I like the political component that seeps into a large share of the threads. Unlike many Americans, I do not take offense at people whose viewpoints differ dramatically from mine - they are just misguided, after all.

4) The moderators do a wonderful job.

5) There is no shortage of contests, challenges, etc to provide incentive to try something different, or at least shoot with a purpose.

I have been too swamped as of late to spend much time with RFF, but I would be very upset to see anything happen to it. It is my only online home.

Randy
 
kbg32 said:
Politics, as Roger said, is part of life. To insult someone by their religious, ethnic background, etc., should not be tolerated, especially in this day and age. I am sorry, but I think those who post hate and vitrol, should be banned from this site. There are plenty of other forums on the internet for them to voice their feeble comments.
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Totally agree.

Yet - am I really too rousseauist ? - I can't find those "who post hate and vitrol" yet. I actually never read their posts here, nor can I drop some nicknames at the moment.

So there is no perish risk for the forum IMO. This is remaining an excellent forum in spite of its very large baselength.
 
I joined RFF very recently, as I finally acquired my first rangefinder (well, actually, six of them... long-ish and not very interesting story). And I've seen references to various useful topics here in the discussion threads of a couple of Flickr film groups, so it seemed like a good place to join.

I do like, though, that it's not just rangefinders - there's plenty of discussion of SLRs, TLRs, and other things here too. While it's nice to have a place with all the accumulated knowledge about rangefinders, I really appreciate all the other information and discussions here. Yes, it moves fast and I find it really easy to "lose" topics (without subscribing to them), but that's ok.

So - to answer the original question - I'm ok with RFF just as it is. I can ignore topics I'm not interested in, no problem.
 
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