Leica LTM What numbers are these on this Leica IIIc ?

[p.giannakis]

Any idea what those numbers are?

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Another Leica IIIc(modified to a IIIc-sync) camera came up over at LUF a year ago. It mentions British Royal Navy PATT 8665

The engraving of PATT 8665 on your camera is similar to one, shown at page 38 in Laney's Leica Collector's Guide book, which is [a IIIc] from 1940/41 and probably a captured camera. Laney pondered as to how various Leicas came into the hands of the British military during WWII. It would seem to me that during the war there were two possible avenues (a) in response to requests to civilians to donate their cameras and (b) through capture in and around battlefields. There is no such mystery about your camera which dates from after the end of WWII. As well as PATT, some Royal Navy cameras are marked with AP for 'Admiralty Pattern'. Van Hasbroeck in his book shows a Leica IIIa (from about 1935) with PATT 8665 engraved on it in a different position. This may either be a pre-war purchase or a donated camera.

 

[p.giannakis]

Is there an estimate value for that?

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Can't really say. I suppose (militaria) collectors might be willing to pay more than the going rate for a wartime civilian IIIc.
The flash socket would possibly detract from it for the purist Leica collectors.

 

[p.giannakis]

Thank you Rick, that's great info.

 

[Malcolm M]

Interestingly, that's a 1941-42 serial number. Anecdote. A couple of years ago I was talking to a former photographer from a Manchester newspaper, one of whose colleagues had been an army photographer during the war. His army issue Leica had a 1942 serial number. (No, I don't know how he established that). When he queried this with his superiors, he was told to keep quiet.

 

[johannielscom]

The engraving of PATT 8665 on your camera is similar to one, shown at page 38 in Laney's Leica Collector's Guide book, which is [a IIIc] from 1940/41 and probably a captured camera. Laney pondered as to how various Leicas came into the hands of the British military during WWII. It would seem to me that during the war there were two possible avenues (a) in response to requests to civilians to donate their cameras and (b) through capture in and around battlefields. There is no such mystery about your camera which dates from after the end of WWII. As well as PATT, some Royal Navy cameras are marked with AP for 'Admiralty Pattern'. Van Hasbroeck in his book shows a Leica IIIa (from about 1935) with PATT 8665 engraved on it in a different position. This may either be a pre-war purchase or a donated camera.

This cannot be right for this camera. It has a 1942 serial number so cannot be a pre-war purchase, and subsequently can also not be a donated camera.

The British were able to procure Leicas through Sweden and possibly Switzerland. So the camera either came that way, or it was captured. There's also a slim chance it was taken along by a refugee but whether cameras were still available to the general public in 1942 and later, I do not know.

Value, I'd hang on to it. Leicas are known to increase in price once collectors develop an interest in a certain model (see the wartime Leicas, the black paint Leicas and in recent days the M6)

 

[Malcolm M]

The British were able to procure Leicas through Sweden and possibly Switzerland

I would imagine Switzerland might have presented difficulties, being entirely surrounded by Axis powers. Sweden is certainty a possibility. A certain amount of trade of high value, low bulk items was carried out using modified motor torpedo boats. Another possibility would be Spain, using regular convoys. Has anyone access to Leica's production record, to see where cameras with British military markings were officially sold?

 

[Mr_Flibble]

This cannot be right for this camera. It has a 1942 serial number so cannot be a pre-war purchase, and subsequently can also not be a donated camera.

That quote belongs with the other camera on LUG

The British Military did acquire a large number of Zeiss Super-Ikontas through Turkey as well early in the war. Seeing as this was the most-issued camera within the AFPU.