zgauthier
Member
Hi everybody,
I've feel I've overcome a big milestone in my photography recently. A month or so ago, I was asked submit some photographs to a yearly art publication. It's just local, but a real hardcover and everything. They had seen some of my previous work and thought it might look good in their book. Needless to say I was excited! My first real published work(the school paper doesn't count, they didn't even get my name right). So I put together what I felt were four of my best, recent images, and sent them off.
Today, an hour ago, they contacted me and with some disturbing news. They didn't like any of my images! Very disappointing. However, they still wanted to include my photographs in their book, just not the ones I wanted. Included with the email was a list of images they felt were "much stronger" than the ones I had submitted. What really disturbs me here is I don't like the images they picked! They chose a few snaps from my digicam, a few from my first roll of black and white, a picture of clouds, and a silhouette of an slr hanging in front of a tv, to name a few.
This is a real dilemma for me. Do I go ahead and let them print the images they like? Or do I just say no and back out? Personally, I feel the ones they chose do not represent me as a photographer... and least not how I'd like to represent my work. But that's just it. Is my style that of the images they like? Or is it the images I like? If I died tomorrow, would I be remembered for all the photographs other people think are good? Or those that I hold most dear?
I appreciate any comments on this. From the photographs I've seen on RFF, I'm sure some of you have experience with having your images published. If anyone's interested, I can post the images in question. Thanks for taking the time.
-Zack
I've feel I've overcome a big milestone in my photography recently. A month or so ago, I was asked submit some photographs to a yearly art publication. It's just local, but a real hardcover and everything. They had seen some of my previous work and thought it might look good in their book. Needless to say I was excited! My first real published work(the school paper doesn't count, they didn't even get my name right). So I put together what I felt were four of my best, recent images, and sent them off.
Today, an hour ago, they contacted me and with some disturbing news. They didn't like any of my images! Very disappointing. However, they still wanted to include my photographs in their book, just not the ones I wanted. Included with the email was a list of images they felt were "much stronger" than the ones I had submitted. What really disturbs me here is I don't like the images they picked! They chose a few snaps from my digicam, a few from my first roll of black and white, a picture of clouds, and a silhouette of an slr hanging in front of a tv, to name a few.
This is a real dilemma for me. Do I go ahead and let them print the images they like? Or do I just say no and back out? Personally, I feel the ones they chose do not represent me as a photographer... and least not how I'd like to represent my work. But that's just it. Is my style that of the images they like? Or is it the images I like? If I died tomorrow, would I be remembered for all the photographs other people think are good? Or those that I hold most dear?
I appreciate any comments on this. From the photographs I've seen on RFF, I'm sure some of you have experience with having your images published. If anyone's interested, I can post the images in question. Thanks for taking the time.
-Zack
Pablito
coco frío
Welcome to the real world.
Sorry I didn't mean to sound mean-spirited. Your innocence is kinda touching. But the the world of photo publishing everything is a negotiation, no one will ever get it right, it's just a matter of how close you can come to getting what you want versus what the editors want. Working with an editor who is on your wavelength is a real pleasure; it can happen but the situation you describe is quite typical.
Sorry I didn't mean to sound mean-spirited. Your innocence is kinda touching. But the the world of photo publishing everything is a negotiation, no one will ever get it right, it's just a matter of how close you can come to getting what you want versus what the editors want. Working with an editor who is on your wavelength is a real pleasure; it can happen but the situation you describe is quite typical.
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iamzip
Ambitious, but rubbish
Tough call. Maybe you should post some examples - both the ones you liked and the ones they liked?
swoop
Well-known
Seriously. Welcome to the real world. The stuff my editor always b]picked out of the lot were never the ones I liked most.
My deviantart account. Gives me an idea of what images the public likes as opposed to what I like.
My deviantart account. Gives me an idea of what images the public likes as opposed to what I like.
zgauthier
Member
Thanks for the input so far guys. I've prepared some images on both sides.
First, three I liked, but they didn't. Bland and boring are two words used in the feedback.
http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/gauthier_01.jpg(nobody seems to like this but me honestly)
http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/gauthier_02.jpg
http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/gauthier_03.jpg
And three they want, but I do not.
http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/1.jpg
http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/2.jpg
http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/3.jpg
There are definitely a few suggested images I can meet them halfway on, but It still makes me think "I've worked so hard to come this far, and they want THIS?" I think that I never want to be a professional photographer.
First, three I liked, but they didn't. Bland and boring are two words used in the feedback.
http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/gauthier_01.jpg(nobody seems to like this but me honestly)
http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/gauthier_02.jpg
http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/gauthier_03.jpg
And three they want, but I do not.
http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/1.jpg
http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/2.jpg
http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/3.jpg
There are definitely a few suggested images I can meet them halfway on, but It still makes me think "I've worked so hard to come this far, and they want THIS?" I think that I never want to be a professional photographer.
W
wlewisiii
Guest
This is kind of a hard question for me to posit an answer to. Being someone who does not now, never has &, probably, never will make my living by the way I see the world leaves me with the inclination towards saying that I'd only worry about publishing what I like. That's the one hand. But that's not how it works, is it?
Out of the six images you posted, only #2 in the second set would I consider publishable. Even then, it's a rather bland and "typical" kind of image that only works because of it's technical skill. That's the other hand.
On the gripping hand, have you looked at the train images of O. Winston Link? ( http://www.linkmuseum.org ) Without a doubt they are some of the finest railroad images ever made. They were not his living. He did advertising photography & was one of the, if not _the_, best of his generation at it. No one give a rat's butt about those images today; but without them, those iconic images of the last runs of the Norfolk & Southern's steam locomotives would never have been made.
That's what you need to consider.
To put it mildly, it's a bit&h of a choice that everyone with pretensions of being artist has to deal with. I know, in theory, what I'd do but I've never been even in a position like yours to have to worry about it. THAT, in the end is why my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it...
HTH,
William
Out of the six images you posted, only #2 in the second set would I consider publishable. Even then, it's a rather bland and "typical" kind of image that only works because of it's technical skill. That's the other hand.
On the gripping hand, have you looked at the train images of O. Winston Link? ( http://www.linkmuseum.org ) Without a doubt they are some of the finest railroad images ever made. They were not his living. He did advertising photography & was one of the, if not _the_, best of his generation at it. No one give a rat's butt about those images today; but without them, those iconic images of the last runs of the Norfolk & Southern's steam locomotives would never have been made.
That's what you need to consider.
To put it mildly, it's a bit&h of a choice that everyone with pretensions of being artist has to deal with. I know, in theory, what I'd do but I've never been even in a position like yours to have to worry about it. THAT, in the end is why my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it...
HTH,
William
Athos6
Tao Master
I have to say I agree with the ones they chose, IMO each one is better then the ones you wanted. I find the street stuff boring, but thats just me. But heck, they're all yours so who cares? At least they like some of your work!
Spider67
Well-known
From the moment you made the photos and have shown them to others you start to lose an essential part of them: Their content. Suddenly interpretations of what you shot will take a totally different direction. And very often those describing their interpretation will be far more eloquent and self confident than you.
It strikes me every time when I hear such interpretations by other people than the photographer.
It strikes me every time when I hear such interpretations by other people than the photographer.
R
Roberto
Guest
Sam N
Well-known
This is a very interesting thread.
I think the point of this thread is that photography (like any other art) is very personal. It's impossible to divorce yourself from your own photos, because a photographer can never see his own work freshly as an outsider (unless you shoot a LOT and don't look at the results for a long time). The things going through your head when you took a photo can color your perception of those photos.
I do agree with the others who think the photos they chose are more interesting, but that isn't important.
I think the point of this thread is that photography (like any other art) is very personal. It's impossible to divorce yourself from your own photos, because a photographer can never see his own work freshly as an outsider (unless you shoot a LOT and don't look at the results for a long time). The things going through your head when you took a photo can color your perception of those photos.
I do agree with the others who think the photos they chose are more interesting, but that isn't important.
Sparrow
Veteran
When I started the studio’s senior designer, nice old guy called Alfred Graham told me the golden rule:
“never ever show a client something you don’t want them to pick…[puff on pipe]….. because they will…[puff, puff on pipe]…. every time”
I’ve found that useful over the years, plus I can still recognise Balkan Sobranie smoking mixture No10 when I smell it.
“never ever show a client something you don’t want them to pick…[puff on pipe]….. because they will…[puff, puff on pipe]…. every time”
I’ve found that useful over the years, plus I can still recognise Balkan Sobranie smoking mixture No10 when I smell it.
mhv
Registered User
It's easy to understand why they want the second set and not the first set.
The second set looks much more like stock photos. They are product shots, single subject, very little background. This kind of picture has a more magazine-y feel.
On the other hand, the first set identifies you as a "student photographer" if you excuse the label. Picture of a lady friend, perhaps one of your first successful portraits, demonstration (those socialist kids!) and dude on the street (so-called "street" photography).
I would say: if you want to get published, let them have the set they want. If you want to have pictures that honestly represent the work with which you identify, it's the last one. But unless there is a magazine that is going to make a profile of you and your accomplishments, as is sometimes the case with retiring and/or very famous photographers, you won't get an offer like that.
zgauthier
Member
Wow! I didn't expect such interest so fast. I really appreciate all the ideas. The general consensus seems to be the images they chose are better. I'd like to explain why I don't like each of their three images.
#1 - I didn't pay any attention to the background. Note the cheesy sci-fi movie poster just hanging out there.
#2 - Yeah, it's a picture of a cool thing. But similar to the first, I didn't pay any attention to how I placed it in the frame, and what was around it. That's a camera flash with the capacitor being shorted across a spoon, if anyone would like to know.
#3 - This is part of a whole series I did. The prints are pure black and white, no tv lines anywhere. But this image was my least favorite from the whole set. I'd much rather they'd have chosen one like this. http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/4.jpg
I won't go too far into why I like what I like, but each of those images is very dear to me. Probably why I can keep shooting even when editors don't like my work! But I've had a chance to speak with them again, and I think we've come to a compromise. Now I've got four new images we both like. They're not all online now, but here are a few.
#1 http://zack.loseby.net/images/leah/leahreflex2crop.jpg(would have preferred the non-crop version http://zack.loseby.net/images/leah/reflex2.jpg, but close enough.)
#2 http://zack.loseby.net/images/herco/4.jpg I like playing with old cameras, and this was certainly taken with an old camera. More boring than my original shots if you ask me though.
This whole ordeal has absolutely been a learning experience for me. I'll definitely be taking it into account when I start my next photo project. Previous to this incident, I would have been absolutely sure my three images were "better" than their three. And for me, they still are. But from now on, when I plan on producing images for other people, I'll try to bend a little.
#1 - I didn't pay any attention to the background. Note the cheesy sci-fi movie poster just hanging out there.
#2 - Yeah, it's a picture of a cool thing. But similar to the first, I didn't pay any attention to how I placed it in the frame, and what was around it. That's a camera flash with the capacitor being shorted across a spoon, if anyone would like to know.
#3 - This is part of a whole series I did. The prints are pure black and white, no tv lines anywhere. But this image was my least favorite from the whole set. I'd much rather they'd have chosen one like this. http://zack.loseby.net/images/rff/4.jpg
I won't go too far into why I like what I like, but each of those images is very dear to me. Probably why I can keep shooting even when editors don't like my work! But I've had a chance to speak with them again, and I think we've come to a compromise. Now I've got four new images we both like. They're not all online now, but here are a few.
#1 http://zack.loseby.net/images/leah/leahreflex2crop.jpg(would have preferred the non-crop version http://zack.loseby.net/images/leah/reflex2.jpg, but close enough.)
#2 http://zack.loseby.net/images/herco/4.jpg I like playing with old cameras, and this was certainly taken with an old camera. More boring than my original shots if you ask me though.
This whole ordeal has absolutely been a learning experience for me. I'll definitely be taking it into account when I start my next photo project. Previous to this incident, I would have been absolutely sure my three images were "better" than their three. And for me, they still are. But from now on, when I plan on producing images for other people, I'll try to bend a little.
Roma
Well-known
Zack,
It looks like those editors are looking for a specific kinds of images and based on what they picked, it looks like they want strong lines and mostly graphic images
Maybe you used to like these shots in the past since you took them and put them online or somewhere else, but now you style is changing and you don't like the images as much. Who knows.
If you think the publication is going to be one of your next levels and provide you with a satisfactory feeling about going forward with photography, try to renegotiate some other images with them and maybe let them publish one or 2 of the ones they already picked.
If it's just your first publication, but you will not be happy of what's in it and don't want people to know you for the images that the editor picked, well, you know the answer.
Best wishes and try to offer other images you're more pleased with.
Roma
It looks like those editors are looking for a specific kinds of images and based on what they picked, it looks like they want strong lines and mostly graphic images
Maybe you used to like these shots in the past since you took them and put them online or somewhere else, but now you style is changing and you don't like the images as much. Who knows.
If you think the publication is going to be one of your next levels and provide you with a satisfactory feeling about going forward with photography, try to renegotiate some other images with them and maybe let them publish one or 2 of the ones they already picked.
If it's just your first publication, but you will not be happy of what's in it and don't want people to know you for the images that the editor picked, well, you know the answer.
Best wishes and try to offer other images you're more pleased with.
Roma
Dektol Dan
Well-known
The trees are in front of the forest.
The trees are in front of the forest.
Well, I reviewed your samples and quite frankly I don't see what you are upset about.
Many publishers have a current theme, or like to see images in a series that matches a particular requirement.
Of your three favorites the 'bull's eye head at the protest' composition looked interesting to me, but only because forced centered compositions are a favorite theme of mine.
I have many themes and when I shoot I go hunting for subjects that fit my bill. Sure, 'photography happens', but not for photographers who are stalking their subjects or are pursuing a compositional theme. Those photographers make it happen. Of course one can go too far with this, as Lenin said, 'forcing semen gets piss'.
I think the editors did you a favor, I can understand what your goals are. You want to express candid shots that have the touch of humanity or warmth. Frankly, your modernist cut and paste work is better and more striking right now. Keep at it and shoot at events where there is a lot of activity until you learn to look where humanity's heart can be found the same way an expert fisherman knows to look for the dark quiet areas in the stream to cast his line.
It's not what you can do, it's looking for the right place to do it.
The trees are in front of the forest.
Well, I reviewed your samples and quite frankly I don't see what you are upset about.
Many publishers have a current theme, or like to see images in a series that matches a particular requirement.
Of your three favorites the 'bull's eye head at the protest' composition looked interesting to me, but only because forced centered compositions are a favorite theme of mine.
I have many themes and when I shoot I go hunting for subjects that fit my bill. Sure, 'photography happens', but not for photographers who are stalking their subjects or are pursuing a compositional theme. Those photographers make it happen. Of course one can go too far with this, as Lenin said, 'forcing semen gets piss'.
I think the editors did you a favor, I can understand what your goals are. You want to express candid shots that have the touch of humanity or warmth. Frankly, your modernist cut and paste work is better and more striking right now. Keep at it and shoot at events where there is a lot of activity until you learn to look where humanity's heart can be found the same way an expert fisherman knows to look for the dark quiet areas in the stream to cast his line.
It's not what you can do, it's looking for the right place to do it.
oscroft
Veteran
The cropped version is stunning
willie_901
Veteran
There is a cliche' that says photographers are lousy self-editors. Let the editor do their job.
willie
willie
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
i like the first one you like (the chick), i remember it from your gallery (here or somewhere else), but with the other two i agree with the "editors".
I think i would have chosen the first you posted as your fav instead of the sparkling whatever-that-is image they chose, but with the other two of their choice i would have no problem.
but this is only my view.
I think i would have chosen the first you posted as your fav instead of the sparkling whatever-that-is image they chose, but with the other two of their choice i would have no problem.
but this is only my view.
retnull
Well-known
Another vote here for the editor's choices.
Consider the possibility that you will have other chances to display your work, and there you may have more control.
Consider the possibility that you will have other chances to display your work, and there you may have more control.
zgauthier
Member
Big news! The excellent editor for this publication accidentally deleted all the material! I'm not kidding. At all. Supposedly they took his drive to a data recovery service(smalldog) and they weren't able to get it back. They still want my material, but it's likely to be reviewed by a different editor... and publication is significantly postponed of course.
Looks like these things have a way of working themselves out.
Looks like these things have a way of working themselves out.