noimmunity
scratch my niche
I'm very excited about the new folder from Fuji/Cosina, and I've avidly followed the discussions here and elsewhere, but I haven't seen much talk about the lens except the divide between those who like it modern and those who like it classic. In order to obviate that debate, I've corraled this post into the "120 RF's modern" forum.
The only experience I have with a fujinon lens is with the one on the Fuji Natura Black. I enjoy the results in Black and White with this lens, although compared to my M mount lenses it has a lot less snap.
Do Fuji lenses with the super ebc coating have any consistent qualities for which they are known? What could we expect from the lens on the new Bessa III? Better yet, are there any places to look for examples of photos taken with a lens that might be very similar?
The only experience I have with a fujinon lens is with the one on the Fuji Natura Black. I enjoy the results in Black and White with this lens, although compared to my M mount lenses it has a lot less snap.
Do Fuji lenses with the super ebc coating have any consistent qualities for which they are known? What could we expect from the lens on the new Bessa III? Better yet, are there any places to look for examples of photos taken with a lens that might be very similar?
W
wlewisiii
Guest
Any modern normal lens - 50/2, 50/1.4 etc - from any maker will look virtually indistiguishable as all are computer optimized multicoated double gauss derived (essentially) symetrical lenses. The 80/3.5 Fuji lens (6 elements in 4 groups, multicoated) will give a look essentially indstiguishable from a Summicron at f3.5.
I suspect that Fuji/Cosina did not want a lens with any kind of exotic look to it's imagry. Simply getting a new generation folder to market is going to be difficult enough as it is - why make the lens potentially appeal to only a small segement of the already small pool of potential folding film camera buyers? Personally I'd love for it to be a classic Tessar derivative but that isn't going to happen anytime soon.
Hope this helps,
William
I suspect that Fuji/Cosina did not want a lens with any kind of exotic look to it's imagry. Simply getting a new generation folder to market is going to be difficult enough as it is - why make the lens potentially appeal to only a small segement of the already small pool of potential folding film camera buyers? Personally I'd love for it to be a classic Tessar derivative but that isn't going to happen anytime soon.
Hope this helps,
William
BillBingham2
Registered User
It is the $64,000 question. Pres K has so many ways he can go with lens design, super sharp, old school feel, I'm wondering if this takes off as well as I hope could he come out with a wider version? I know Pres K will make it great in which ever approach he decides to use.
I'm hoping we will see some more info shortly. It's going to be a hard camera to resist for a lot of photographers.
B2 (;->
I'm hoping we will see some more info shortly. It's going to be a hard camera to resist for a lot of photographers.
B2 (;->
infrequent
Well-known
is the lens in this supposed to be interchangeable?
W
wlewisiii
Guest
No, of course not. This is a folder and even Kodak gave up on the Retina IIIC a very long time ago.
More seriously, no it's not. There are only a very tiny handful of ways to make interchangeable lenses for a collapsible front standard. The Retina III and Contaflex (slr rather than folder, but still similar) cameras were probably the optical best that were made but, nonetheless, both of their systems fare extremely poorly against proper interchangable systems that do not have to A) wiggle their front standard all over creation and B) have a focal plane shutter rather than an extreamly difficult to deal with leaf shutter.
In the end, you can get one good lens on a folder but not more than that.
William
More seriously, no it's not. There are only a very tiny handful of ways to make interchangeable lenses for a collapsible front standard. The Retina III and Contaflex (slr rather than folder, but still similar) cameras were probably the optical best that were made but, nonetheless, both of their systems fare extremely poorly against proper interchangable systems that do not have to A) wiggle their front standard all over creation and B) have a focal plane shutter rather than an extreamly difficult to deal with leaf shutter.
In the end, you can get one good lens on a folder but not more than that.
William
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aizan
Veteran
who designed the lens, anyway?
W
wlewisiii
Guest
Given the camera came out in Fuji colors first (last year) my guess is Fuji. Even if it was Cosina, however, it wouldn't matter. No one has done an unusual (i.e. non-Gaussian design) mass market normal lens since, what?, the Canon 50/2.8 Tessar clone for their RF line? I don't remember any other more recent serious non-Gaussian lenses from anyone even as low market as Konica (and at this point German companies do not count... 
).
William
). William
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
The latest seems to be the Classic Heliar 50/2. And guess what, it's a Heliar lens and is produced by Cosina... Does it reminds you of something?
80mm is too short for a classic 5 element Heliar formula covering 6x7, hence the sixth element.
Cheers!
Abbazz
W
wlewisiii
Guest
Heh. Look at what I wrote:
"mass market normal lens" Some little RF design from Cosina is not that. Fuji isn't going to pay one minute of attention to that little pis*-ant lens. Bigger issue here: Fuji. They trump Cosina every time. The good news in that is that Fjui seems to have adopted an attitude of Giri to the production of film (we sold film cameras so we have an obligation to provide film for them as long as they are being used.). We win one moment and lose the other. Good trade off to me.
William
"mass market normal lens" Some little RF design from Cosina is not that. Fuji isn't going to pay one minute of attention to that little pis*-ant lens. Bigger issue here: Fuji. They trump Cosina every time. The good news in that is that Fjui seems to have adopted an attitude of Giri to the production of film (we sold film cameras so we have an obligation to provide film for them as long as they are being used.). We win one moment and lose the other. Good trade off to me.
William
Glad you asked.
The lens is made by Cosina, not Fuji.
It's a Cosina lens via Mr. K.
IOW, it's going to be one hellava lens.
But WHICH lens? It is quite possible there will be different lens choices between the Fuji version and the Voigtlander version. Time will tell. No decision yet, at least as of last week at Photokina. Tom A helped design the new folder, but Mr. K, Fuji, and Ringfoto (the owner of the Voigtlander trademark) make the final decisions on what goes to the production line.
Stephen
The lens is made by Cosina, not Fuji.
It's a Cosina lens via Mr. K.
IOW, it's going to be one hellava lens.
But WHICH lens? It is quite possible there will be different lens choices between the Fuji version and the Voigtlander version. Time will tell. No decision yet, at least as of last week at Photokina. Tom A helped design the new folder, but Mr. K, Fuji, and Ringfoto (the owner of the Voigtlander trademark) make the final decisions on what goes to the production line.
Stephen
Avotius
Some guy
Does anyone else think the folding cover over the lens looks like plastic?
no, you are the only one on planet earth that thinks that. ...
in person the camera looks good. the shutter is incredibly quiet, the finder incredibly bright. And when you change formats from 6x6 to 6x7, you also change the framelines format! Oh, and the Silicon sensor is on the filter ring (not TTL as I mistakenly wrote in another jet lagged post).
The market for a new 120 RF folder is not perceived to be that large. Apparently there is something called "digital" which is eating up the market sales share. In other words, the Fuji / Bessa III is likely to be a limited one production run camera.
Stephen
drewbarb
picnic like it's 1999
Hmm. Fuji lenses of the past 20+ years have been excellent performers for LF; I don't have to convince most of you of the quality of Cosina lenses. Coming from these two companies, this camera was/is bound to come with some expectation of good qualities, optical and otherwise. Reason to hope, if that's not a dangerous thing.
Looking forward to this camera...
Looking forward to this camera...
aizan
Veteran
stephen!!! can you ask them to, maybe, uh, save some paint and not silkscreen those numbers on the front of the voigtlander version?
wait, the metering cell is on the filter ring? i don't see anything there. isn't it the circular thing next to the frameline illumination window?
wait, the metering cell is on the filter ring? i don't see anything there. isn't it the circular thing next to the frameline illumination window?
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Avotius
Some guy
Im glad to hear that, would hate to think cosina put (gasp!) plastic on one of their cameras like this. Very much looking forward to this interesting piece of kit, and in due time it may even find its way into my bag which is sorely missing a medium format camera since my yashica TLR died.
wayneb
Established
A little off topic (but since we got to plastic cover questions, why not) - can you change from 66 to 67 mid-roll?
Now this is a most interesting thing to ponder. Would the different lenses have the same focal length and max aperture... if so what would the distinction be?
The prototypes both show a 3.5/80mm, but might the production models have slightly different focal lengths, say, 75mm for one and 85 or 90mm for the other? Having them even this different might mean different bellows and folding mechanisms. But I'd really like an f2.8 75mm, great for 6x7 IMHO, though the shown 80mm is exciting too.
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
Yes. Fuji medium format lenses (at least when they were made by Fuji) were as good as pretty much anything on earth: razor sharp, perfectly centered, and very hot in terms of contrast. When you buy a GSW690III, you're paying mostly for a killer lens. My gut instinct tells me that what Cosina sells will probably be more to Mr. Kobayashi's taste, to say more like classic MF lenses.
Ernst Dinkla
Well-known
Stephen,
What is the round opening to the left of the frameline illumination window then? And the small rectangle in the ilumination window ? So far we guessed that the round one is the silicon cell and the small rectangle the second rangefinder window, which would make the physical rangefinder base about 37/38 mm. If the round one is the second rangefinder window (unusual for today's Bessas but the T) then the rangefinder base could be approx 53 mm. That leaves another purpose for the small rectangle ....
Ernst Dinkla
Ernst Dinkla
Well-known
Plasmat ?
Plasmat ?
Would it not be in everybody's interest when Fuji gave Cosina the blueprint's of one of its Plasmats as used on other Fuji MF's and have it converted to 80 mm focal length ? I do not recall any MF lens designs by Cosina, at least not recent.
A Fuji 645 60mm will cover a similar angle in 80mm shape on a 56x75 mm frame.
Ernst Dinkla
Plasmat ?
Would it not be in everybody's interest when Fuji gave Cosina the blueprint's of one of its Plasmats as used on other Fuji MF's and have it converted to 80 mm focal length ? I do not recall any MF lens designs by Cosina, at least not recent.
A Fuji 645 60mm will cover a similar angle in 80mm shape on a 56x75 mm frame.
Ernst Dinkla