What's with the Leica glass character?

[Gabriel M.A.]

German lenses, and especially Leica lenses are higher contrast, while the Japanese lenses tend to favor neutral contrast.

Also, sushi is cooked and water is dry.

 

[jonmanjiro]

"I suspect the reduced film to glass distance has something to do with it as well."

So the new micro 4/3 system, with reduced lens to sensor distance, should blow away Nikon and Canon professional SLR's and their lenses? How would reduced distance make a difference if the lenses were designed the format?

My comment is film specific, as I shoot film with my SLR and RF kits.

With film the angle that the light can hit the film is much less critical than with digital, making it easier for designers of film lenses. But the job is even easier for RF lens designers than SLR lens designers because their lens designs don't have the restriction of having to clear the mirror in the SLR mirror box, so they can use designs such as non-retrofocus designs as mentioned above. This results in better performing glass, especially as the focal length gets wider.

However with digital sensors, the light has to hit the sensor perpendicularly or as close to perpendicular as possible for decent results. That changes the rules of the game entirely and the above doesn't apply.

 

[Fred Burton]

Most people who view photos will never see enough photos to tell the difference between an slr lens and an rf lens. It's an esoteric that makes no practical difference to anybody but those of us obsessed with gear.

 

[Fred Burton]

"That changes the rules of the game entirely and the above doesn't apply."

So it's not the lenses but the capture medium? Leica RF lenses are superior to SLR lenses on any M7 but suck on an M8?

 

[jonmanjiro]

Most people who view photos will never see enough photos to tell the difference between an slr lens and an rf lens. It's an esoteric that makes no practical difference to anybody but those of us obsessed with gear.

I beg to differ. For example, images taken with my (now sold) Nikkor Ai-S 20mm f2.8 lens showed pretty ugly uneven distortion in the corners. The CV 21/4 I now use is way better. Even my wife noticed the difference.

 

[jonmanjiro]

"That changes the rules of the game entirely and the above doesn't apply."

So it's not the lenses but the capture medium? Leica RF lenses are superior to SLR lenses on any M7 but suck on an M8?

Some do. Some don't.

Manufacturers can now cover-up a lot of the defects older lenses exhibit by processing the image in-camera. The Nikon D700 and Nikon D3 excel at this.

But it begs the question .... did the lens take the image? Or did the in-camera processing do most of the work? These days, the answer to that question is moving more and more to the latter.

 

[dave lackey]

Hi, Jon...

Good to see you join in...as you know, the S3 2000 with the 50mm 1.4 Millenium lens completely blows away every Nikkor lens I personally have tried. Your tests on the Millenium lens are what convinced me to buy the S3 2000 in the first place. And my results with that lens have been so different and more pleasing to my eye that I cannot go back to SLR lenses as my style and taste in the resulting images has evolved.

That is why I posted this thread. I wanted to see if anyone was having the same experience. For the last two months, since I sold the S3 2000, I have tried very hard to duplicate a photo of my granddaughter and every attempt has failed with the SLR lenses. The results with the SLR are harsh and ugly when compared to the image by the S3 2000.

So, now that I am looking at the M3 and thinking about lenses, I thought it would be fair to see what others have experienced. You have confirmed my exact findings.😀

Now, what I would like is to compile a list of Leica lenses (+CV, Zeiss, etc.) and attach a representative photo to compare the signature images. Probably be too complex a task so I will continue to research and dream away!🙄

Thank you for your input, Jon, as it is always welcome because I learn a lot from you.

 

[dave lackey]

"Consider also the relevance of 'sparkle', very high MTFs at modest frequencies: both Zeiss and Ilford have done quite a lot of research on this."

Hmmm...that is very interesting reading, Roger! Thank you for the stimulating topic as I need something like that to keep my mind active. I have read a good portion already and it is intriguing and makes sense.

Time to hit the rack...

Thanks again for the discussion.🙂

 

[edodo]

The other day, I watched a short documentary about Henry Cartier Bresson. There was a very nice french actress who said about HCB shots :" photography can be so fascinating you know, look at the expressions, the postures, the attitudes of the people in the picture! you can infinitly look at them and find all the little subtlelities."
Well that resume for me the advantage of having a small, silent "low profile" camera permitting to disapear and let the humans live and breath like they candidly do.
IMO a reflex is agressive. People fear it or change their attitude in front of it.
It's no leica privilege, but leica excells in this domain!

 

[dave lackey]

The other day, I watched a short documentary about Henry Cartier Bresson. There was a very nice french actress who said about HCB shots :" photography can be so fascinating you know, look at the expressions, the postures, the attitudes of the people in the picture! you can infinitly look at them and find all the little subtlelities."
Well that resume for me the advantage of having a small, silent "low profile" camera permitting to disapear and let the humans live and breath like they candidly do.
IMO a reflex is agressive. People fear it or change their attitude in front of it.
It's no leica privilege, but leica excells in this domain!

Yes, edodo...I agree that SLR's are obtrusive. I only use my D2X/D2H or F5 when I am doing work professionally (sports photography, portraits, weddings, etc.) but never use anything larger than a RF or F3 for my personal photography. People do change when that big gun of a SLR camera is pointed at them. And, I suspect, even I change a bit when using a rangefinder versus the SLR...

The big payoff for me is that final image. And that image is, in part, influenced by the actions, demeanor and reactions of the subjects participating in the making of that image.😎

 

[Sparrow]

I watched the Genius of Photography on the Beeb earlier this year, the “gear” hardly got a mention, out there in the real world the type of camera is of little importance and its maker even less, someone’s prejudices don’t matter at all

 

[pcsmythe]

This article on Photo Utopia may help to explain the character of Leica lenses as compared to others. While it does not deal specifically with Leica or lenses, it does deal with the reaction of light on film (which impliedly deals with lenses and their rendering characteristics). It, with the Kodak article, is a fascinating read.

While one cannot say that Leica's lenses are less than stellar on an M8, the article does bring up the question of what kind of light character is rendered by a particular lens on a sensor as opposed to a film emulsion.