agi
Well-known
Interesting discussion going on and it's much appreciated. There's dissent going on every day but most of the time we either don't hear about it or don't care about it. It's ironic that this thread is here and I saw this YouTube video of Texas students who shut down a highway & walked 7 miles to their early voting polling plae to cast their votes in the Primary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvDAiWWuvRg&eurl=http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=718
The premise for this display of dissent is that redistricting has made it more difficult for voters to actually vote. These student have to go 7 miles from campus just to vote. Will you see this in tomorrow's major news outlet? Maybe, most likely not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvDAiWWuvRg&eurl=http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=718
The premise for this display of dissent is that redistricting has made it more difficult for voters to actually vote. These student have to go 7 miles from campus just to vote. Will you see this in tomorrow's major news outlet? Maybe, most likely not.
bmattock
Veteran
agi said:
7 whole miles? How awful that must be for them. Can't they just drive their Mercedes Benzes?
williams473
Well-known
Sitemistic,
Yes I think you are hitting on something there - I probably do rely on external approval too much - just part of my makeup. It's strange that I can see myself doing it, but if I'm honest I still can't seem to break myself of needing approval for my work. May be part of the old question "is it art if no one sees it" sort of endless discussions you have after drinking a lot of beer.
Keith - thanks for the encourgement - I am indeed trying to just keeping on shooting, if for not other reason than the place you are today - the specifics, the story about the protest in Texas - these events and ones that don't seem to any lasting significance at all at the moment, may play into a latter understanding of how we got to where we are. This whole thread might have actually been more specifically about art photography that looks like photojournalism - using the camera to make quality works of art that reflect the culture in which they are made, and then can be used to wake people up to the plight of the culturally, financially, or spiritually bankrupt people we have living in this country.
Yes I think you are hitting on something there - I probably do rely on external approval too much - just part of my makeup. It's strange that I can see myself doing it, but if I'm honest I still can't seem to break myself of needing approval for my work. May be part of the old question "is it art if no one sees it" sort of endless discussions you have after drinking a lot of beer.
Keith - thanks for the encourgement - I am indeed trying to just keeping on shooting, if for not other reason than the place you are today - the specifics, the story about the protest in Texas - these events and ones that don't seem to any lasting significance at all at the moment, may play into a latter understanding of how we got to where we are. This whole thread might have actually been more specifically about art photography that looks like photojournalism - using the camera to make quality works of art that reflect the culture in which they are made, and then can be used to wake people up to the plight of the culturally, financially, or spiritually bankrupt people we have living in this country.
PaulRicciardi
Established
bmattock said:
Great generalization of the youth of today! (apply sarcasm liberally to last sentence)
I think the point of that story was that many college students, contrary to what you apparently believe, don't have a car and, subsequently, by placing the poll so far away from campus you effectively eliminate a substantial portion of that voting demographic. 7 miles is a little bit of a hike, that's going to take a while and the average American isn't going to want to walk that far (and then back again) to vote. Would you? My guess is no, you would rather drive. Although I'm sure I will get a speech about "when I was in the Marines we used to walk 15 miles up hill both ways just to s**t."
Just to let you know, I'm 18, car-less, and a college student. 7 miles is no big deal to me, I ride about 120 miles a week on a bike, but I'm sure that makes no difference.
And no, since I'm sure you will ask, mommy and daddy aren't paying for my education- I moved out at 17 and worked multiple jobs for the past 3 years so I could get an education.
On the issue of dissidence, I think that some still remains. I sure hope so at least.
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keithwms
Established
dazedgonebye said:
Actually, Steve, I think a compelling case can be made that the eff-ups of the current generation of leaders are quite historic in magnitude and will be paid for by my generation and probably the next.
But let's leave it at that.
The OP should feel encouraged to use photography as a social tool.
agi
Well-known
I'm not even going to bother replying to bmattock as it's really not worth it.
What I was trying to get at is that there are things going on that we can document with our cameras. We just have to look for it and be aware. One benefit of not being a paid photojournalist is that you can be more deliberate in showing your own point of view instead of what the traditional media wants nowadays - the washed down "safe" middle POV.
Go out and photograph in your environment and enjoy.
What I was trying to get at is that there are things going on that we can document with our cameras. We just have to look for it and be aware. One benefit of not being a paid photojournalist is that you can be more deliberate in showing your own point of view instead of what the traditional media wants nowadays - the washed down "safe" middle POV.
Go out and photograph in your environment and enjoy.
PaulRicciardi
Established
keithwms said:
Agreed, I feel that a photograph (or a series of them) that truly encapsulates an event in the world can make a big impact and potentially lead to social change. Many people view an image and feel compelled to act upon what they see. Despite the fact that the world has changed and we are living in an age of information saturation I still think that a powerful photograph remains a powerful tool. All it really takes is a few individuals to hang onto that idealism that photojournalism is not dead. Personally, soon as I'm done with school, I plan on being one of them.
Going in a different direction I feel that the social issues in America are different from those across the world. They are more subtle perhaps. Here the issues are less "extreme" than in other places across the world. While America might not have poverty, famine, violence, and disease in the intensity that the rest of the world has it, these issues still exist here. Not to mention the issues unique to American society. But taking a broader world view, what about everything that is occurring worldwide? Shall we ignore it and leave it un-photographed for fear that the public will ignore it? I say just go ahead, do it, and get the photos are out there. If you feel like your work will make a difference in the world or inspire others to act for change than go for it.
As far as I am concerned, If at least one life is changed for the better, in my book, that's all that matters.
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bmattock
Veteran
PaulRicciardi said:
Not all of them. I listen to whatever my nephew has to tell me about the war and politics. He's just a few years older than you, he's on his second tour in Iraq at the moment. I admire him.
Well, since you already know the story, I'll keep it to myself. Pretend I said it.
It isn't your lack of funds that makes me less than sympathetic.
Huh. Sounds familiar. I'll bet I sounded just like you, too. Guess what? You ain't the Lone Ranger. Guess I wasn't, either.
What I hear is not dissidence, but dissonance. From a lot of people not qualified to play an instrument in the band.
Ororaro
Well-known
Social dissidents?
With the latest american scam (yeah, supporting Kosovo, the biggest Drug dealers and the land with most uranium and fuel in Europe, thus taking it away from Serbs and giving it to the powerful albanian lobbyists), what can the social dissidents do?
I could write a book on this but yet, CNN and other brainwashing media and brainwashed people will just ignore the truth.
Social dissidents? More serbs dead then jews in WWII. Died for the same cause, BTW. But yet, because of money, serbs have been shown as monsters while it was exactly the opposite, for the past 20 years.
I'm a social dissident and I vomit at all the lies from the press. I vomit at all the brainwashed sheep out there. And still, being a social dissident just doesn't help at anything. It's all about the money and control.
So to answer your question: this social dissidence thing is just a lie and always was. Just gives the people an impression of change, but in reality it's worthless. Always was.
With the latest american scam (yeah, supporting Kosovo, the biggest Drug dealers and the land with most uranium and fuel in Europe, thus taking it away from Serbs and giving it to the powerful albanian lobbyists), what can the social dissidents do?
I could write a book on this but yet, CNN and other brainwashing media and brainwashed people will just ignore the truth.
Social dissidents? More serbs dead then jews in WWII. Died for the same cause, BTW. But yet, because of money, serbs have been shown as monsters while it was exactly the opposite, for the past 20 years.
I'm a social dissident and I vomit at all the lies from the press. I vomit at all the brainwashed sheep out there. And still, being a social dissident just doesn't help at anything. It's all about the money and control.
So to answer your question: this social dissidence thing is just a lie and always was. Just gives the people an impression of change, but in reality it's worthless. Always was.
PaulRicciardi
Established
bmattock said:
Good for him, but sorry to say I shan't be wasting my life for a cause I don't believe in. If he wants to great, I respect him for it. I can name on both hands friends from high school who chose the same path. Actually, at one point in time the military was a very good option for me. So good, in fact, that once in my life I was sitting in a recruiting office with a piece of paper waiting for my name on it. Not signing it was the best decision of my life.
Not saying I am alone in my situation. Nor am I asserting that I am the only 18 year old kid who has worked his rear off to get somewhere. Just simply reminding you that not all of the kids in this world are lazy bums. I think we would both agree, to an extent, that most 20 somethings haven't had to work for much of anything. But a lot of them have. However, just because they have chosen to do so outside of the military does not make them "lesser."
So only those who have served in the military are qualified to have an opinion?
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
NB23 said:
you got to see who is REALLY behind this Kosovo thing Ned.
it has to be" Stepinac's "organization.
it is always good for future planned wars too.
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goo0h
Well-known
williams473 said:
Don't think so much about it; just do it. Don't worry if folks will like it now, or 50 years from now. You can never tell. When Robert Frank's book the "Americans" came out it was trashed by the critics in this country. Now (and it's about to be re-released in May on Amazon) it's heralded as a masterpiece.
When Walker Evans did the photos and James Agee wrote the text for what eventually became "Let Us Praise Famous Men," by the time the book finally came out, much of that material had already been presented by the FSA photographers. So the book wasn't a hit then. However, during the era of Johnson's "Great Society" efforts in the 60's, the book gained heightened appreciation.
williams473 said:
If it brings you happiness, then it is never worthless. If you find joy in doing it, and you care about the subjects, chances are you're going to portray a story -- whether it's AIDS in Africa or the community on your street -- that is going to be meaningful and appreciated.
Good luck!
lic4
Well-known
Deleuze
Deleuze
I live in America with an overwhelming sense of terror most of the time, and not because of so-called terrorists. On that note, living for self and living for country can be equally problematic. Always faithful? To what? Certainly not humanity.
The problem with social photography moved over to video, and it's ruined much of serious cinema. Anytime George Clooney is the poster child of our social conscience, you know that something has gone terribly wrong.
My most optimistic side says that the changes are good for photography, letting the form turn deeper to artistic ends. I'm probably in the minority in thinking that social documentary is not particularly effective.
There is a great poem that says, "every wise child is sad;" I like to think that it is the best guide for the creative process.
Deleuze
Bas, I was thinking of the same quote while reading the thread.Bas said:
I live in America with an overwhelming sense of terror most of the time, and not because of so-called terrorists. On that note, living for self and living for country can be equally problematic. Always faithful? To what? Certainly not humanity.
The problem with social photography moved over to video, and it's ruined much of serious cinema. Anytime George Clooney is the poster child of our social conscience, you know that something has gone terribly wrong.
My most optimistic side says that the changes are good for photography, letting the form turn deeper to artistic ends. I'm probably in the minority in thinking that social documentary is not particularly effective.
There is a great poem that says, "every wise child is sad;" I like to think that it is the best guide for the creative process.
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xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
how is one to publish photographic social documentary?
on Flickr or here perhaps ?
images on the internet are so fleeting and have to compete with many on it.
the corporate media might not be interested if the images are going against a certain agenda.
on Flickr or here perhaps ?
images on the internet are so fleeting and have to compete with many on it.
the corporate media might not be interested if the images are going against a certain agenda.
goo0h
Well-known
I think it depends somewhat on the times. I think when there's an overall sense of hope in society, it becomes more receptive to change highlighted by social documentary. I think when society is preoccupied by despair or anxiety, folks rather watch American Idol or Big Brother than to hear about genocide.lic4 said:
I forget where I saw it. But it was a discussion about photojournalism today. Something about how video was now the major form if information dispersal at the critical moment, but that still photographers were now going in after the big event to more carefully reveal the aftermath. I wish could remember where I heard that. I'm still recovering from the flu and so my head is even more scattered than usual.
Speaking of photojournalism, a member of our family did some really interesting work recently on MAG (Mines Advisory Group):
http://flickr.com/photos/sockeyed/sets/72157603670403322/
http://flickr.com/photos/sockeyed/sets/72157603753032385/
It's a really terrific and interesting spread.
bmattock
Veteran
PaulRicciardi said:
It's not for everyone. Some are sheep and some are sheepdogs.
Lesser? No. But less qualified to render a judgment on the military, the war, or the state of our country.
Two words there. Can anyone have an opinion? Yes. Is it an opinion I am liable to put much consideration towards? Perhaps less so.
You can count on both hands the friends of yours who have gone into the military. I can can count on both hands my friends - almost all of whom are veterans.
What I cannot count on both hands are the number of people who think they can join my club by telling me (when in their 40's) about how they "almost joined" or "if there was a war today, I'd be right there on the front lines with 'em" (haven't heard that one recently, I must say) or "I thought seriously about joining, but never got around to it." Regrets are funny things. People think that regretting not having done something is almost the same as having done it.
In the end, you pack the gear or you do not. Those who do and did are my brothers, and their opinions matter more to me than do yours on certain subjects. Not one of them wasted their lives who did not come home; they just quietly paid a high price so that you can complain about a 7 mile trip to vote. Enjoy it, your freedom comes courtesy of veterans.
dazedgonebye
Veteran
keithwms said:
It's pure arrogance if you believe you won't be seen the same way by the next generation.
Give it another 20 years before you pass judgement on the current leaders. That data just won't be in till at least that long.
Now...you can have the last word if you want it.
bmattock
Veteran
sitemistic said:
And those who came back are dismayed when people tell them their sacrifice was for nothing, that nothing they did mattered. Some get quite angry. I don't blame them.
Quoth the man who is qualified to judge by dint of his extensive experience doing...
I have never said they have a greater right to speak out. I said I valued their opinions on subjects such as the military, the war, and politics more. You have every right to run your pie-hole on subjects you have never experienced, and so do not know anything about. Some opinions matter, some do not.
When someone tells me their opinion on rangefinder cameras, never having owned one themselves, but having read all about them, I tend to value their opinions less than the person who has owned and used them. When someone tells me their opinion on how screwed up America is, I tend to listen more to citizens of the US and people who have lived here than residents of nations who have learned all they need to know about the USA on TV. And when people tell me how our young people's lives are being wasted in Iraq, I tend to pay more attention to people who have actually served a cause greater than themselves once in their selfish, self-centered lives.
I didn't like this thread from the beginning, but I was kind of happy because for awhile I stayed out of it. And I think I should have left it that way. The presumption of the O/P was that documentary photography needs to be done because of how awful we all are. Well, I don't agree with either premise - that the world (and the US, as the thread quickly turned to) is that awful or that I need to do anything about it with my photography. I can be religious without preaching, and I can take photographs without having to impart some important social message. If you need to do that, then do that. But I didn't get a black beret, a Che t-shirt, a pack of clove cigarettes, and a yen to change the world when I bought my first rangefinder camera. I just wanted to take photographs.
But then the America-bashing and the current-administration-bashing started again, and I got a trifle irritated. I come here to talk about cameras and photography, and not about how awful America is and how awful George Bush is. It's been my downfall on RFF before, so I think I need to go out and do some photography now.
bmattock
Veteran
sitemistic said:
A patriot is a person who supports and defends his nation and his countrymen. A patriot can have any political opinion he or she wishes, but it begins from the base belief in one's country.
I have not stated an opinion on the war or the president. I said I'm sick of hearing about the opinions of armchair commandos, whose expertise consists of being one of the protected, here on RFF. There are political boards where one can wax poetic about how awful it all is. I don't go there, precisely because I don't care to hear it.
tripod
Well-known
Uh, I think I nailed it in post #8.