Brian Legge
Veteran
I'm officially frustrated. I've had a heck of a time finding a decent folder.
My first folder was a Zenobia. It is a great camera but I really wanted something with a rangefinder - preferably coupled though uncoupled was okay too.
I first tried a Moskva 5. It came to me with major alignment problems. Once I fixed those, I took a few test shots. Between the strong shutter spring causing shaking and the lens with uneven coating, it wasn't going to get as sharp as I wanted. This was a local purchase I just failed to inspect as well as I should have. This camera is in my stack to sell.
I moved on to a Minolta Auto Semi. I was on the fence about the lens but the the camera requires use of the automatic film counter and mine doesn't seem to be serviceable. And light leaked through the shutter blades. Even if it was servicable, the lens would have made the camera questionable. For a while I was holding out to fix this myself but I think its beyond my capabilities and the results I got with it are too classic for my tastes.
I gave a Super Dolly a shot but its just in rough condition. The camera itself doesn't feel polished; opening the camera is a bit of a pain and the rangefinder doesn't suit me. My problems were half me, half the camera. I'll probably try another roll with this camera though I don't expect to keep it at this point.
Tonight I moved on to a Frank Solida III. After adjusting the rangefinder and lens, I realized the front standard was misaligned badly. It looks like the struts were bent a bit. I might be able to get them realigned but its going to take a be hit and miss. From the looks of it, the I'm not sure if this body was ever particularly robust with respect to alignment.
So yeah - I'm pretty darn frustrated. I've spent enough that I probably could have bought a decent user outright. I still wouldn't have known what model or where to buy though. I was pretty solid on the Franka but after seeing how the front standard is aligned, I'm not sure it is the best budget option.
So for those who have have folders you are happy with, how did you do it? I was trying to keep the total cost down though I've spent way more than I'd hoped on this already.
My first folder was a Zenobia. It is a great camera but I really wanted something with a rangefinder - preferably coupled though uncoupled was okay too.
I first tried a Moskva 5. It came to me with major alignment problems. Once I fixed those, I took a few test shots. Between the strong shutter spring causing shaking and the lens with uneven coating, it wasn't going to get as sharp as I wanted. This was a local purchase I just failed to inspect as well as I should have. This camera is in my stack to sell.
I moved on to a Minolta Auto Semi. I was on the fence about the lens but the the camera requires use of the automatic film counter and mine doesn't seem to be serviceable. And light leaked through the shutter blades. Even if it was servicable, the lens would have made the camera questionable. For a while I was holding out to fix this myself but I think its beyond my capabilities and the results I got with it are too classic for my tastes.
I gave a Super Dolly a shot but its just in rough condition. The camera itself doesn't feel polished; opening the camera is a bit of a pain and the rangefinder doesn't suit me. My problems were half me, half the camera. I'll probably try another roll with this camera though I don't expect to keep it at this point.
Tonight I moved on to a Frank Solida III. After adjusting the rangefinder and lens, I realized the front standard was misaligned badly. It looks like the struts were bent a bit. I might be able to get them realigned but its going to take a be hit and miss. From the looks of it, the I'm not sure if this body was ever particularly robust with respect to alignment.
So yeah - I'm pretty darn frustrated. I've spent enough that I probably could have bought a decent user outright. I still wouldn't have known what model or where to buy though. I was pretty solid on the Franka but after seeing how the front standard is aligned, I'm not sure it is the best budget option.
So for those who have have folders you are happy with, how did you do it? I was trying to keep the total cost down though I've spent way more than I'd hoped on this already.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
The problem is folders have not been made, with a few exceptions like the ultra-costly Fuji 6x7 that is still made, in 50 yrs. They're old and mostly worn out, because most were not pro cameras, they were made for amateur use, meaning they were not made to last forever. Most need the shutter CLAd, the bellows replaced, and the RF adjusted if the camera has one. I looked at a lot of them and gave up, never bought one.
P C Headland
Well-known
I've bought all mine on eBay or our local equivalent, TradeMe. I've only had one slightly iffy one, and that was a press camera that I bought from a UK seller while living in Europe. Other bits of that kit made up for the dodgy bellows.
If you buy from a reputable seller, you should be OK - Beedhams, Cupog, etc. You have to accept that you're unlikely to get a bargain this way. I'm sure some others here can suggest some decent sellers.
The other possibility is to wander round garage sale, junk stores, etc.
If you buy from a reputable seller, you should be OK - Beedhams, Cupog, etc. You have to accept that you're unlikely to get a bargain this way. I'm sure some others here can suggest some decent sellers.
The other possibility is to wander round garage sale, junk stores, etc.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
In my experience, pre war folders (plus Japanese 6x4.5'es, which seem to have had a local hard user market for longer) are the only 120 film folders very likely to be worn out. Later (post war) folders came too late and hit a market just converting to 24x36, so most of them were only used for few years (gentle at that, consumer use back then often amounted to only one film for the vacancies, holidays and family celebrations a year).
Many folders we'd consider desirable today are corroded or dried up, sometimes even eaten by mold and mice, but most are barely used. Which can sometimes be important - cleaning, re-lubing and replacing bellows and other soft components is quite feasible with hobbyists competence and tools, while re-machining cogs and wheels would require you to grow serious metalworking as a second hobby...
wallace
Well-known
just don't buy from Certo6. Cupog seems to be reliable, bought from him twice and had my Super Ikonta serviced by him for a very fair price. He did a great job.
wallace
wallace
lynnb
Veteran
Wallace - what's the problem with Certo6? Just curious, as I had bookmarked him for future reference if I get a refurbished folder.
NLewis
Established
Certo6 looks OK to me, of course he is one old guy working from his garage, when he feels like it, so you get all those issues:
http://www.certo6.com/
He CLAs them, replaces the bellows, and generally gets them back to working condition. Not too expensive either. These vintage folders are only so-so for image quality of course. The difference between these and a Plaubel Makina or a Fuji 6x7 is pretty big.
http://www.certo6.com/
He CLAs them, replaces the bellows, and generally gets them back to working condition. Not too expensive either. These vintage folders are only so-so for image quality of course. The difference between these and a Plaubel Makina or a Fuji 6x7 is pretty big.
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sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Well, he likes to cobble together cameras from mixed pieces, sometimes arriving at body/lens/shutter combinations never issued by the maker, as evident by things he sold through ebay and on his site in the past. This knocks off any collectors value, so that his prices may later turn out to be much higher than they initially seem.
And some of his repairs have reportedly been of the sloppy kind, quite a few known good repairers had less than nice stories about the internal (greasy) shape of shutters that have gone through his hands. YMMV, as that may have been early attempts and people do learn over the course of time, but I certainly would do a very thorough inspection before accepting any of his cameras.
wotalegend
Well-known
What's wrong with certo6? I bought an Ikonta (not Super) from him a few years ago and it works fine - within the boundaries of its design in the first place. e,g, it's only scale focus and I sometimes get it wrong; the Novar lens is fairly basic.
Brian Legge
Veteran
Right - I totally understand that these cameras are old and not in like new condition. I'm fine doing some work myself; bellow replacement, rangefinder alignment, a bit of shutter cleaning, etc.
The frustrating part has been the type of problems I've hit. Ones that don't seem especially repairable without a lot of spare parts. Given the lack of them out there - I've emailed a few repair people about this - the cameras are generally only useful for parts.
I know the Moskva has a reputation for poor quality (or at least erratic quality). I didn't realize the Franks were considered lesser quality. People speak well of them from what I'd seen.
So basically the only ones worth looking at are what Certo6 praises? If so, I guess I'll stick with the Zenobia and scale focus as it looks like a camera that meets my needs is beyond my budget.
The frustrating part has been the type of problems I've hit. Ones that don't seem especially repairable without a lot of spare parts. Given the lack of them out there - I've emailed a few repair people about this - the cameras are generally only useful for parts.
I know the Moskva has a reputation for poor quality (or at least erratic quality). I didn't realize the Franks were considered lesser quality. People speak well of them from what I'd seen.
So basically the only ones worth looking at are what Certo6 praises? If so, I guess I'll stick with the Zenobia and scale focus as it looks like a camera that meets my needs is beyond my budget.
R
rpsawin
Guest
I purchased Balda Super Baldax from Certos6 and had no problems.
Bob
Bob
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
Yeah, I would not trash Jurgen (certo6). I have never had problems with him.
To the original poster, I'd suggest maybe you're not looking at the right cameras. The Zeiss folders, whether Ikonta, Super Ikonta, or even the "humble" Nettar, are really well made -- very solid and rigid. The so-called "Signal" Nettar in 6x6 (I forget the Zeiss coding for the model), has one of the 3 element Novar lenses and a pretty basic shutter (Pronto? Prontor?) produces great results and is really small. The "Signal" refers to the fact it has double exposure prevention, which is a really nice plus. The Voigtlander Perkeo with the Vaskar lens is another compact 6x6 that's very solid -- you need to make sure its double exposure prevention is working properly, though.
The Nettars are zone focusers, just so you know -- if a rangefinder is a must, look for one of the "Mess" Ikontas, which has an uncoupled RF. Truth be told, with the three element lenses, you're going to be shooting at f8 or smaller, so zone focusing is pretty easy.
To the original poster, I'd suggest maybe you're not looking at the right cameras. The Zeiss folders, whether Ikonta, Super Ikonta, or even the "humble" Nettar, are really well made -- very solid and rigid. The so-called "Signal" Nettar in 6x6 (I forget the Zeiss coding for the model), has one of the 3 element Novar lenses and a pretty basic shutter (Pronto? Prontor?) produces great results and is really small. The "Signal" refers to the fact it has double exposure prevention, which is a really nice plus. The Voigtlander Perkeo with the Vaskar lens is another compact 6x6 that's very solid -- you need to make sure its double exposure prevention is working properly, though.
The Nettars are zone focusers, just so you know -- if a rangefinder is a must, look for one of the "Mess" Ikontas, which has an uncoupled RF. Truth be told, with the three element lenses, you're going to be shooting at f8 or smaller, so zone focusing is pretty easy.
lawnpotter
Well-known
Just bought a nettar 517/16
Just bought a nettar 517/16
I got my first roll of Tri x back. So far I wouldnt call the pics stunning but the 5 by 5 prints compare well to my 4 by 6 prints made from my 35mm cameras. I suspect that bigger prints will look better than the 35mm camera prints. I have an external rangefinder I use or I just zone focus. I like the camera it is fun and very easy to use and is more pocketable (jacket) than my other cameras(except oly stylus) If I really wanted to, I could put it in my back pocket of my jeans(I tried it). With lowpro bag and watameter I paid $100.00 locally. It may end up being my most used camera. I havent tried it yet for close focus stuff, that could be its weakness.
Just bought a nettar 517/16
I got my first roll of Tri x back. So far I wouldnt call the pics stunning but the 5 by 5 prints compare well to my 4 by 6 prints made from my 35mm cameras. I suspect that bigger prints will look better than the 35mm camera prints. I have an external rangefinder I use or I just zone focus. I like the camera it is fun and very easy to use and is more pocketable (jacket) than my other cameras(except oly stylus) If I really wanted to, I could put it in my back pocket of my jeans(I tried it). With lowpro bag and watameter I paid $100.00 locally. It may end up being my most used camera. I havent tried it yet for close focus stuff, that could be its weakness.
lawnpotter
Well-known
Oh I forgot to mention, I already dropped it on my kitchen floor. fortuneately it was folded up. it seems fine.
graywolf
Well-known
Makes me feel lucky. I have recently bought a Hapo 66E, and an Iskra on eBay. Both have only needed adjustments and relubricating in the case of the Iskra. Both take decent photos. And everything works on both, if not as smoothly as I would like.
My only gripe is that none of the eBay sellers today seem to be as honest as most were a few years back. When we pay a decent price for something, we should not get any surprises. On the other hand I see idiots paying idiotic prices for stuff on eBay.
Probably, the way to look at it is stuff from the 1950's are classics, and you need to allow $100-150 to put it in working condition. Older stuff are antiques, and you are looking at $250-500 to restore them, which is why a lot of antiques are left "as found".
Maybe the strangest thing is this forum is mainly a users form, rather than a collectors forum. We want working cameras, more than mint looking cameras. It is actually easier to find "mint looking" than it is to find "works like new" old cameras.
My only gripe is that none of the eBay sellers today seem to be as honest as most were a few years back. When we pay a decent price for something, we should not get any surprises. On the other hand I see idiots paying idiotic prices for stuff on eBay.
Probably, the way to look at it is stuff from the 1950's are classics, and you need to allow $100-150 to put it in working condition. Older stuff are antiques, and you are looking at $250-500 to restore them, which is why a lot of antiques are left "as found".
Maybe the strangest thing is this forum is mainly a users form, rather than a collectors forum. We want working cameras, more than mint looking cameras. It is actually easier to find "mint looking" than it is to find "works like new" old cameras.
Brian Legge
Veteran
"It is actually easier to find "mint looking" than it is to find "works like new" old cameras."
Haha, very true!
Well, the Franka looks like it may be salvageable. The more I look at it, the more I think the uneven film plane was original, not damage. I'll have to spend some more time with this one has it has more promise than the others.
Haha, very true!
Well, the Franka looks like it may be salvageable. The more I look at it, the more I think the uneven film plane was original, not damage. I'll have to spend some more time with this one has it has more promise than the others.
wallace
Well-known
I don't want to start this all again. There has been a lot of discussion about JK in the past here on rff, my experience with him has been bad.
Since then I send my cameras to professional repairmen. Period.
Beside: You seldom find a Voigtlaender Perkeo or Bessa with bad bellows! Agfa's are always kaputt.
wallace
Since then I send my cameras to professional repairmen. Period.
Beside: You seldom find a Voigtlaender Perkeo or Bessa with bad bellows! Agfa's are always kaputt.
wallace
borosphere
Newbie
I'm on a budget too and I'd say save up for a good lens if you want sharpness. I've bought three cheap ( < 30 pounds or euros) Voigtlanders on ebay, only one was bad- a corroded lens. The Bessa 66 is a good camera though only the Voigtar lens. The Perkeo has a Vaskar lens but the shutter is in many pieces at the moment with a jammed screw awaiting inspiration. These shutters usually respond to a good clean so it's worth trying it. The Perkeo is the smallest folder available. There's a Perkeo III UCR with Skopar on ebay at the moment - I wonder what it'll fetch?
I also got a Selfix 820 dual-format very cheap, rusty and mouldy yet still working. The lens cleaned up with saliva and no staining! The bellows are stiff and have lifted slightly from the body, so I'll Gaffa tape it back to test it tomorrow. Two other Selfix 16/20s with Xpres lenses worked OK, as well-built as the Zeisses. Expect to pay 15-30 pounds or euros, about 20 - 50 dollars. Postage might be more. There's plenty of 820s and 16/20s but I can't get a 12/20 - too expensive.
I've never had leaky bellows with these two makes, tested with a bundle of ten very bright LED Xmas tree lights. Am I just lucky? Only the Selfix shutters are light-proof with this severe test.
As to rangefinder versions, I'll let the collectors have them and get a separate one.
I also got a Selfix 820 dual-format very cheap, rusty and mouldy yet still working. The lens cleaned up with saliva and no staining! The bellows are stiff and have lifted slightly from the body, so I'll Gaffa tape it back to test it tomorrow. Two other Selfix 16/20s with Xpres lenses worked OK, as well-built as the Zeisses. Expect to pay 15-30 pounds or euros, about 20 - 50 dollars. Postage might be more. There's plenty of 820s and 16/20s but I can't get a 12/20 - too expensive.
I've never had leaky bellows with these two makes, tested with a bundle of ten very bright LED Xmas tree lights. Am I just lucky? Only the Selfix shutters are light-proof with this severe test.
As to rangefinder versions, I'll let the collectors have them and get a separate one.
AndyB
Newbie
I bought a Bessa RF from Jurgen (certo6) - he was polite, told me the bits he had replaced from other cameras and was very clear about what I was getting. Having run a couple of films through it since I'm very happy indeed.
Now, I don't know what it looks like inside, whether the shutter is greasy or if a collecter will 'sniff' at it for having a non standard part.
However; what I wanted is what the OP wants: the cheapest, reliable RF folder that I can just take photo's with. That's what I paid for and that's what Jurgen gave me.
So, you say:
'I don't want to start this all again.'
well, earlier in the thread you said:
'just don't buy from Certo6'
So; make you're mind up, if you don't want to 'start this all over again' then stop bad mouthing Jurgen - Simple.
Now, I don't know what it looks like inside, whether the shutter is greasy or if a collecter will 'sniff' at it for having a non standard part.
However; what I wanted is what the OP wants: the cheapest, reliable RF folder that I can just take photo's with. That's what I paid for and that's what Jurgen gave me.
So, you say:
'I don't want to start this all again.'
well, earlier in the thread you said:
'just don't buy from Certo6'
So; make you're mind up, if you don't want to 'start this all over again' then stop bad mouthing Jurgen - Simple.
MC JC86
Negative Nancy.
Don't give up!
Don't give up!
KEH has a Super Ikonta B in ugly for $149.. Don't be deterred by the condition, I recently bought one of the same models from them in that condition and it arrived in great shape. If it had been sold on eBay it would have been sold as "excellent" not to mention, super-rare. I also use a Super Ikomat (super Ikonta A) that I found for $130.... The moskva 5 is a nice folder too but I've never gotten one that didn't need quite a bit of work before using. Once they're working though, the optics are among the best in MF RF folders.... First, decide which format you want, 6x9? 6x4.5? 6x6? (some, like the Moskva, are dual-format with masks) and go from there.
It's not hard to get a working folder, just gotta look and figure out exactly what you want. I'd say the most important thing to make sure of, once you figure out which model you may want, is that the bellows are good since they're difficult to replace unless you're a DIYer. Also that the halfmirror isn't desilvered... Most other parts are serviceable by competent techs... I use ESSEX for my folders. Good luck, don't give up, the results are well worth the time you spend..
Super Ikomat (ZI Super Ikonta A) Shooter 6x4.5cm
Russian Moskva 5 Super Ikonta copy (shoots 6x9cm)
Don't give up!
KEH has a Super Ikonta B in ugly for $149.. Don't be deterred by the condition, I recently bought one of the same models from them in that condition and it arrived in great shape. If it had been sold on eBay it would have been sold as "excellent" not to mention, super-rare. I also use a Super Ikomat (super Ikonta A) that I found for $130.... The moskva 5 is a nice folder too but I've never gotten one that didn't need quite a bit of work before using. Once they're working though, the optics are among the best in MF RF folders.... First, decide which format you want, 6x9? 6x4.5? 6x6? (some, like the Moskva, are dual-format with masks) and go from there.
It's not hard to get a working folder, just gotta look and figure out exactly what you want. I'd say the most important thing to make sure of, once you figure out which model you may want, is that the bellows are good since they're difficult to replace unless you're a DIYer. Also that the halfmirror isn't desilvered... Most other parts are serviceable by competent techs... I use ESSEX for my folders. Good luck, don't give up, the results are well worth the time you spend..
Super Ikomat (ZI Super Ikonta A) Shooter 6x4.5cm
Russian Moskva 5 Super Ikonta copy (shoots 6x9cm)