Skiff
Well-known
Same here. I've never posted a "sky is falling thread". I've only posted the current facts concerning the photo industry.
The data is clear and obvious. The challenges there are affecting me as professional and all enthusiast photographers, too. Especially in the coming years.
We have to face the situation. Naive denial of the facts isn't helpful.
No one here has claimed a huge film resurgence based on anecdotes.
The film revival is explained and confirmed by the film and photo chemistry manufacturers, by the film distributors and some manufacturers of film equipment like JOBO, which have introduced new products because of increasing demand:
- Eastman Kodak has reported increasing film demand, and they increased their film staff recently by 15% to increase the production; Ektachrome comeback is in the works
- Ilford has reported increasing demand for the last three years
- Adox has reported increasing demand in the double digit area, and they are now building a new plant and doubling their factory space in Germany
- Fotoimpex has reported increasing demand
- Film Ferrania started their business because of increasing demand
- Fujifilm has invested millions of dollars in Instax because of increasing demand (increasing since 2004, by the way)
- Impossible project reported increasing demand, introduced improved films and introduced their own first camera last year, more cameras will follow
- Jobo is reporting increasing demand, introduced new products
- Maco / Rollei-Film has also reported increasing demand
- Bergger reported increasing demand, introduced therefore their new Panchro 400 film
- Tetenal and Spur have reported increasing demand, both introduced new products
- ars-imago has got more than 300.000€ in only three days for their daylight developing tank.
And so on......there are even more examples.
The industry is sending very clear signals about the beginning film-revival.
But some forum members are alwas ignoring these facts and say that is only "anecdotical".
Skiff
Well-known
It is impossible to make solid market assessments by looking at cameras in the streets.
About 95% of the current produced camera models I've never seen in the streets. But they are sold in millions worldwide!
And you should not forget that cameras are mostly used in private areas, at home, and not publicly in the streets (with the exception of tourists, travellers).
If we want to know how popular a camera type really is, we have to look at the sales data. Period.
Fujifilm has increased both Instax film production and camera production.
They have introduced new camera models.
They are introducing new films. Last year the new BW film, this year the new square format film.
They have invested in new production facilities.
They are investing in marketing (even TV spots).
They would not do that without a strong increasing demand!
I am using Instax professionally, mostly at weddings (Instax wide).
The medium is wonderful for that. Only problem: I cannot fully exploit its potential because of the camera limitations.
I want to have a better camera with a better lens. And I know lots of other Instax shooters who want the same.
If Cosina gives me such a camera, or Fujifilm, or Leica, or Nikon.....it does not matter for me.
The company which satisfies my demand, will get my money.
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Prest_400
Multiformat
There is an interesting zeitgeist lately, this is rather OT but rather amusing and on the topic of revivals:
I was surprised to see the news of Nokia Reintroducing the 3310 phone.
http://www.gsmarena.com/new_nokia_3...me_design_larger_color_display-news-23579.php
That phone has gained a cult status in the internet because of a meme praising its invincible qualities.
Not 1st of April, checked.
I was surprised to see the news of Nokia Reintroducing the 3310 phone.
http://www.gsmarena.com/new_nokia_3...me_design_larger_color_display-news-23579.php
That phone has gained a cult status in the internet because of a meme praising its invincible qualities.
Not 1st of April, checked.
robert blu
quiet photographer
i'm curious to know how much people are ready to pay for a full frame digital Bessa with M mount. Just curious...
robert
robert
willie_901
Veteran
willie_901
Veteran
$500 more than an X-Pro 2. This is based in the fact that I do not care if the body thickness is noticeably wider than the film version. I would be perfectly happy with minimalistic menu options (=less firmware R&D costs).
radi(c)al_cam
Well-known
As you've probably seen, after my first car comparison, I introduced the classical music instrument comparison. I'd like you to argue against this one, please
Still waiting …∂
rbsinto
Well-known
Robert,
With a Leica M mount? Nothing. Not five cents.
With a Nikon F or even better S mount? The Moon and the Stars.
Robert
Paul T.
Veteran
All this info about the revival of film is pretty much irrelevant. Because we're talking about cameras, and there aren't like to be any significant new 35mm film cameras. VC have stopped making the Bessa film cameras.
Sony sales of the A7 have exceeded their targets. They are a large company and find this segment profitable. Sadly it is unlikely that we will see a digital bessa, as Cosina aren't motivated to produce one and have presumably dismantled their production line; given the profusion of quirky cameras, like RIcoh or Fuji items, it's logical there would be a market for a full-frame Bessa - but as to whether it would be big enough to sustain a production line, we're sadly unlikely to ever find out.
Sony sales of the A7 have exceeded their targets. They are a large company and find this segment profitable. Sadly it is unlikely that we will see a digital bessa, as Cosina aren't motivated to produce one and have presumably dismantled their production line; given the profusion of quirky cameras, like RIcoh or Fuji items, it's logical there would be a market for a full-frame Bessa - but as to whether it would be big enough to sustain a production line, we're sadly unlikely to ever find out.
HHPhoto
Well-known
Probably it will not be so much different than today.
Sales of DSLM cameras declined by 26% since 2012.
The expectations concerning the DSLM market are much overrated. It will not take over the DSLR market.
Both will stay, but on a lower sales level compared to today (because of market saturation and longer using periods of the cameras in general).
DSLRs will have the biggest market share in the future, but probably a bit less than today.
Cheers, Jan
HHPhoto
Well-known
Of course it is not.
Increasing film demand is leading to increasing film camera demand in the mid and long term.
We already see significantly rising prices for several film camera models on the used market. Some items even reach their former new price level.
We will see a similar development with film cameras we've already seen with mechanical watches, vinyl and turntables: First demand for vinyl has increased, then with a bit delay dozens of new turntables have been introduced.
Camera manufacturers have to look into the future. They have to make their analysis now for what they want to sell in 3, 4, 5, 6 years.
Cheers, Jan
Paul T.
Veteran
A simple "of course it is not" does not advance your argument.
My post stated how the film Bessa has been discontinued. That one fact outweighs all the glorious new film cameras of your imagination.
mpaniagua
Newby photographer
Only problem with that logic is the same statatement you made, about used camera market. New film cameras would face competition from their own used cameras. Take Leica for example. Leica new cameras (being film or digital) face a fierce competition from their own used cameras. Not many will buy a new camera instead of a nice working used camera for mainly 2 reasons a) vintage value and b) price.
Its not like the film cameras manufactures want to chage expensive prices for their cameras. One just need to compare the original sale price of most used or vintage cameras of today, and the prices are quite similar. Good, reliable cameras are expensive, period.
Concening digital Bessa,Cosina will take into account a clearly slowing market, a fierce competition from already stablished and trusted manufacturers, a highly competitive used market, and suddendly the idea of a digital bessa doesnt sounds that good.
Regard
Marcelo
HHPhoto
Well-known
It has been discontinued because of decreasing demand at that time.
But times and the situation are changing, and will continue to change in the coming years. And that is the situation camera companies have to analyse. You have to look at the future.
And there is much more (and more attractive fields) about film cameras than 35mm rangefinders. Lots of options.
Cheers, Jan
HHPhoto
Well-known
That is right. But:
1. There are lots of models with very high demand and very high prices on the used market.
That are the fields on which new cameras make sense in the mid term. If you have to pay 1,000-1,200 bucks for a 15, 20 year old used camera, or 1,800 - 2,000 bucks for a new, improved camera with full guarantee, lots of photographers will go for the new one.
2. New cameras will not be the same as the old ones. You can improve them compared to former models, offering advantages and additional features compared to former models available on the used market.
Cheers, Jan
LukeBanks
Established
As of right now, certainly up to, if not more than, the cost of an X-Pro2. I think my local is asking £2,159 for the body + 23mm. I'd pay that for a full frame digital Bessa body depending on the specs and sensor. If it cut costs I'd be blissfully happy with MF, no screen, no evf.
I guess with a digital Bessa it would be harder to appeal to everybody as the potential options wouldn't be as easily covered by a 2/3/4 - M/A line up.
All pipe dreams and conjecture of course, I know nothing of economics.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
I knew it! I was looking at Flickr group for Instax and most appealing images were taken by twenty years old BF where his forty years old GF's shows some private parts!
mpaniagua
Newby photographer
Agree on #1, but about #2, remember that a lot of people keep buying Leica's M3 over M6 or M7, even if the price different isnt that great, mostly because they like older specs, not newer. I love my M6, and also have an M3 but I like M6 better for its newer specs. Unfortunatly, Im affraid the vast majority goes for an M3,M2 or M4 because they dislike things like light meters, viewfinder gridlines, etc. I dont really thing is based on price (M2 and M3 have similar price to M6). Much quoted "better build quality" is, OMHO, very much overrated and personal taste.
Sure hope for the best, and, personally, I hopefully waiting for a next generation of Bessa film cameras. My Bessa R2 has a failing lightmeter and its getting ready to be send to fixing. Really love the camera's viewfinder.
Regards.
traveler_101
American abroad
Well, it's a good question. I doubt that I would pay the required $3000 +/-. So far I haven't paid more than $450 for a digital camera and I give digital second billing to film.
HHPhoto
Well-known
Well,
1. I am convinced that the majority of film photographers like improved models, when a new camera is introduced (look for example at the Voigtländer Bessa III: Even with this old, classic folder concept several significant improvements compared to its rolemodel Makina 67 were implemented, and the users appreciate that).
2. Leica M users are probably not representive for the majority of film shooters. They are quite special kind of people.....
.But even they are buying new M7, MP and M-A film models.
And the M-A without lightmeter is a kind of successor to the former M3.
By the way, at last Photokina Leica told me the M-A is selling well.
So even in this extremely conservative market there is a demand for new film cameras, even if they are in strong competition to used models.
Cheers, Jan