GaryLH
Veteran
Ok --> here is my analogy based on Nikon dslr camera line (sorry Nikon only brand I know decently)...
To me
-- xa1 is equivelent to Nikon d3xxx, designed as the cost based camera system to get people in the door
-- xm1 is that next step like the d5xxx..
-- xe-1 is the d7xxx for the serious amateur.
-- xp-1 right now at best is kind of like a d300/600, serious amateur but still was apsc sensor.
Granted, the xa and xm in some ways w/o the evf is more like a Nex 3 and they are actually closer in terms of similarities then the difference in features of the d3xxx and d5xxx series, but my main point was really trying to set the stage for my question based on how they seem to be segmenting their products...
Given the rumors already spreading on what the xe2 looks like, it leaves it in the d7xxx camp.. This leaves the next step for Fuji w/ the xp line.
Do they stay serious amateur? Or do they go semi-pro or full pro?
- follow the xp1 w/ a better apsc sensor
- semi pro more like a d700/800
- go full bore and do a d4
I personally think that they decided to push the xp follow on ship to q1 of 2014 so that they could gage the other full frame announcements coming by the end of this year.. And decide what to announce in 2014...
Given the rumor of the xe2 is only about a month away from announce, I would guess a xp2 would not have been that hard to accomplish for end of this year, since a lot of components in the past have been very similar...
So I have been thinking, what if they are doing something drastic for the xp2? More like a d700/800 equivelent camera w/ a ff or that new organic sensor?
Any just some fun speculation, what do u think?
Gary
To me
-- xa1 is equivelent to Nikon d3xxx, designed as the cost based camera system to get people in the door
-- xm1 is that next step like the d5xxx..
-- xe-1 is the d7xxx for the serious amateur.
-- xp-1 right now at best is kind of like a d300/600, serious amateur but still was apsc sensor.
Granted, the xa and xm in some ways w/o the evf is more like a Nex 3 and they are actually closer in terms of similarities then the difference in features of the d3xxx and d5xxx series, but my main point was really trying to set the stage for my question based on how they seem to be segmenting their products...
Given the rumors already spreading on what the xe2 looks like, it leaves it in the d7xxx camp.. This leaves the next step for Fuji w/ the xp line.
Do they stay serious amateur? Or do they go semi-pro or full pro?
- follow the xp1 w/ a better apsc sensor
- semi pro more like a d700/800
- go full bore and do a d4
I personally think that they decided to push the xp follow on ship to q1 of 2014 so that they could gage the other full frame announcements coming by the end of this year.. And decide what to announce in 2014...
Given the rumor of the xe2 is only about a month away from announce, I would guess a xp2 would not have been that hard to accomplish for end of this year, since a lot of components in the past have been very similar...
So I have been thinking, what if they are doing something drastic for the xp2? More like a d700/800 equivelent camera w/ a ff or that new organic sensor?
Any just some fun speculation, what do u think?
Gary
Vobluda
Well-known
Few more generations and the will manage the proper AF 
YYV_146
Well-known
Just a few things I want (In order of demand):
1. EVF, higher resolution and contrast
2. RF-patch-esq overlay on OVF
3. weather proof
4. dedicated ISO dial
1. EVF, higher resolution and contrast
2. RF-patch-esq overlay on OVF
3. weather proof
4. dedicated ISO dial
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
I would love to see Fuji FF x-something. But it is not going to...
All of their and others modern lenses seems to be designed for crop.
IMO. Those who are waiting for non-DSLR FF lens exchangeable camera are more interested of re-using their MF Leica, Voigtlander, FSU, etc compact RF lenses.
All of their and others modern lenses seems to be designed for crop.
IMO. Those who are waiting for non-DSLR FF lens exchangeable camera are more interested of re-using their MF Leica, Voigtlander, FSU, etc compact RF lenses.
Kwesi
Well-known
Interesting questions Gary,
I think Fuji would have been quite happy to have this body style (rangefinderesque) stay as an aps-c format and compete directly and only with Olympus Panasonic and Sony NEX, using the xtrans sensor as their claim to "full frame quality.
Now that Sony is producing an actual full frame NEX I think there is definitely a wait and see attitude at Fuji. Given the specs of the Olympus EM1 and the upcoming NEX FF Fuji definitely has some thinking to do re the XPro 2. My Guess is a full frame weather sealed body with its own 3 prime starter kit. Body accepts existing X line of lenses in crop mode
Frank Petronio
Well-known
I don't see why they would ever need to go to full-frame, certainly not to placate a few people who want to use legacy lenses. The APS sensors seem to be performing wonderfully and help keep the price of the camera affordable.
Hopefully they'll take note of the higher build quality Olympus and Panasonic models and do a more robust, slightly larger body with sealing and a really great EVF.
I think they are all going to move towards putting more functions on the chips, touch screens, and multi-control surfaces rather than dedicated buttons... right now the Fujis have dials but the new generation of photographers who have always used digital probably don't care... and it is easier and less expensive to build a more reliable, sealed camera that has less moving mechanical parts.
What I'm skeptical of, and it's not just Fuji but all the digital camera makers, is that I fear they will never achieve fast, continuous focus tracking and I doubt they will ever get the user interface right or simplified. Instead they'll probably add complexity and feature-creep the darn things to death. Have we ever seen user interfaces improve in any of the iterations of any manufacturer's digital camera line? Maybe the Leica S or the Phase backs got better over time - the iPhone did - but I can't think of any others that actually got better.
I'm thinking that something like the Nikon D300-700-D3-D3s were probably the peak of the curve for usability and pure shooting... very fast, responsive cameras with great focusing and relatively straight-forward user interfaces. Nikon has only stumbled since and the nobody's done a camera that shoots better - instead they are all more compact or more video-friendly or have ridiculous resolution or some other selling point that is marketing driven rather than photography driven.
Hopefully they'll take note of the higher build quality Olympus and Panasonic models and do a more robust, slightly larger body with sealing and a really great EVF.
I think they are all going to move towards putting more functions on the chips, touch screens, and multi-control surfaces rather than dedicated buttons... right now the Fujis have dials but the new generation of photographers who have always used digital probably don't care... and it is easier and less expensive to build a more reliable, sealed camera that has less moving mechanical parts.
What I'm skeptical of, and it's not just Fuji but all the digital camera makers, is that I fear they will never achieve fast, continuous focus tracking and I doubt they will ever get the user interface right or simplified. Instead they'll probably add complexity and feature-creep the darn things to death. Have we ever seen user interfaces improve in any of the iterations of any manufacturer's digital camera line? Maybe the Leica S or the Phase backs got better over time - the iPhone did - but I can't think of any others that actually got better.
I'm thinking that something like the Nikon D300-700-D3-D3s were probably the peak of the curve for usability and pure shooting... very fast, responsive cameras with great focusing and relatively straight-forward user interfaces. Nikon has only stumbled since and the nobody's done a camera that shoots better - instead they are all more compact or more video-friendly or have ridiculous resolution or some other selling point that is marketing driven rather than photography driven.
GaryLH
Veteran
Forgot to mention...
I am actually ok w/ the next gen xp not being full frame. The reality is that if I had wanted ff, I would have bought a used rx1 or Nikon d600 long ago.
To me it will be interesting to c which way they decide to head.
Gary
I am actually ok w/ the next gen xp not being full frame. The reality is that if I had wanted ff, I would have bought a used rx1 or Nikon d600 long ago.
To me it will be interesting to c which way they decide to head.
Gary
N.delaRua
Well-known
In the immediate future, I think its going to be iterative evolution.
I think the X100s is a preview of the future. That being said ones does have to wonder where they are going because with the FW update they added some of that functionality.
I hope they keep innovating; I don't know how far off that organic cmos sensor is they are co-developing with panasonic, but that sounds interesting.
With the X-series I think they have shown they can be competitive with the FF crowd (notice I did not say better, I said competitive). Now they just need to listen and re-fine, and according to the likes of people like David Hobby, Zack Arias, Kevin Mullins, and Bert Stephani they are. I don't know if that is more marketing than R&D, but it really seems like this company with its FW updates and well thought out lens roadmap is seeking to deliver in a unique way.
They have my attention. Every prime they are release I lust after. They are fast, sharp, reasonably priced, and cover the most popular focal lengths.
There has not been a digital system that has made me want to part with my M6 and film until the Fuji X-Series.
I think the X100s is a preview of the future. That being said ones does have to wonder where they are going because with the FW update they added some of that functionality.
I hope they keep innovating; I don't know how far off that organic cmos sensor is they are co-developing with panasonic, but that sounds interesting.
With the X-series I think they have shown they can be competitive with the FF crowd (notice I did not say better, I said competitive). Now they just need to listen and re-fine, and according to the likes of people like David Hobby, Zack Arias, Kevin Mullins, and Bert Stephani they are. I don't know if that is more marketing than R&D, but it really seems like this company with its FW updates and well thought out lens roadmap is seeking to deliver in a unique way.
They have my attention. Every prime they are release I lust after. They are fast, sharp, reasonably priced, and cover the most popular focal lengths.
There has not been a digital system that has made me want to part with my M6 and film until the Fuji X-Series.
Kwesi
Well-known
+ 2 on the lack of desire to see Fuji go full frame. If they do it won't be to placate legacy lens users. I only use leica m lenses on my xp1 and I love the tele effect. Whatever they end up doing , I think fuji is well aware that they will have to earn the "pro" moniker.
daveleo
what?
My opinion (note the emphasis) is that a lineup of APS format cameras brings in much more cash that an FF format lineup ever would, and that is going to be true in the near/midterm future.
Weight, size and cost of the FF format cameras is too high a price that most people will pay for the benefits of going FF. I think that Fuji sees it this way as well.
They may offer a FF design to "test the waters", but it will be very expensive (unless they are willing to loose money on it for a test run).
I love making up this kind of stuff.
Weight, size and cost of the FF format cameras is too high a price that most people will pay for the benefits of going FF. I think that Fuji sees it this way as well.
They may offer a FF design to "test the waters", but it will be very expensive (unless they are willing to loose money on it for a test run).
I love making up this kind of stuff.
Tijmendal
Young photog
It's not worth it to try and go FF for Fuji. It'll soon be obsolete. Technology is getting so good sensor size is going to matter less-and-less. In 5 years camera phones will be just as good 5D mkII. And M4/3 will be better than we could've ever imagined.
cosmonaut
Well-known
I don't see them going the weather sealed pro direction. Their cameras are expensive enough as is. Olympus had a lot of SLR faithful to appease and try to convert to m4/3rd.
I do feel they will continue with adding to their lens line up with some stellar ones. Plus improve the focus issues and EVF. I don't think Fuji has a reliable flash design to ever be considered Pro grade. Compacts are far reaches from full frame DSLRs. Pros, real pros will always be reluctant to change from that.
I do feel they will continue with adding to their lens line up with some stellar ones. Plus improve the focus issues and EVF. I don't think Fuji has a reliable flash design to ever be considered Pro grade. Compacts are far reaches from full frame DSLRs. Pros, real pros will always be reluctant to change from that.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
The full-frame interchangeable manual-focus lens Fuji, the X-Luddite1, will look something like this, but will be available in blue, black, pink, and teal:
aizan
Veteran
i just hope fuji makes a full frame, more professional version of the x100s. weather sealing, no built-in flash, improved interface, more rugged grip and overall design and build.
cosmonaut
Well-known
To be a pro body I would think a grip with batteries would be in order. Full frame would be interesting but that would mean a new more expensive lens line.
aizan
Veteran
i'm talking about a FF fixed lens camera. i don't mind if the x-mount cameras stay aps-c.
cosmonaut
Well-known
Like the RX-1. Yeah that would be interesting as well.
Spyro
Well-known
I think it's pretty clear...
more lenses, continuous improvements in AF, EVF and raw converters, split screen in all EVF cameras (like in x100s), and the obligatory "improvements" in megapixels and high iso performance.
These should keep them busy for 3-4 years.
more lenses, continuous improvements in AF, EVF and raw converters, split screen in all EVF cameras (like in x100s), and the obligatory "improvements" in megapixels and high iso performance.
These should keep them busy for 3-4 years.
thirtyfivefifty
Noctilust survivor
Sorry, but what are you smoking up something in Amsterdam?
Full-frame will be soon obsolete?
The problem with the camera phone market is size and durability. Aptina's Sandor Barna explained just last month that smartphone makers stick to fixed lens, digital zoom because they don't like large, moveable, breakable parts and their customers won't accept thicker form factor.
Since there's no pressure to move up in size whether it be form factor or sensor, there's a big gap between where smart phone stands and where 1-inch sensor cameras stand.
Ricoh? GRD series moved up to APS-C
Nikon? Created the 1-series with yes, 1" sensor
Canon? APS-C M (Been making APS-C already)
Fuji? APS-C (Been APS-C in the past with SLRs)
Micro Four Thirds? 4/3" beyond that 1" mark.
Sony? Been innovating a lot all around and have APS-C NEX, SLR, and Full frame RX1 RX1R and SLR. Only other company with a compact full frame is Leica.
All at least 1" or larger to differentiate themselves to smartphones.
To say full frame is going to be obsolete is foolish. To compare sensor sizes and camera types is comparing apples and oranges. They all serve their purposes.
For many of us, yes we want full-frame, and for Fuji to produce anything Full-frame shows innovation in addition to APS-C innovations. It shows that Fuji is will to break beyond their success and offer more options, but IMO, it's the x100 line (or whatever the line will be called in the future) that will dictate where the company goes.
If you think smartphones will be as good as a 5D2, you're ignoring a lot of factors. I mean hold a smart phone, and look at the 5D2. It should be obvious.
If you're amazed at what manufacturers can do with a smartphone and their users can do. Think about what manufacturers of different (and more traditional) types of cameras can do, and what their users can do as well.
Sensor size still has relevance. It's photography after all, but it depends what kind of photographer you are.
willie_901
Veteran
I have no desire for a larger sensor. The 35/1.4, 23/1.4, 18/2, 24/2.8 and soon to be 56/1.2 are fast enough for me. I am taking equivalence into account so I realize a 24 x 36mm sensor with the same aperture lenses would perform better with regard to signal-to-noise ratio. There would be more DOF flexibility too. At the same time, the 24 x 25 mm lenses would likely be larger, heavier and more expensive – based recent Nikon, et al's 24 x 36 mm primes. No thanks.
I think APS-C is the sweet spot between m4/3 (lens need to be too large and expensive for equivalent performance) and 24 x 36mm cameras (larger lens, more expensive bodies).
If I had a desire to use third-party lenses I am sure I would feel differently. But I sold everything else and just use the Fujinons.
I think the XP-2 might not have an OVF. If so, I will just pick up an nice used XP-1 for a second body and use the lenses I own.
I think APS-C is the sweet spot between m4/3 (lens need to be too large and expensive for equivalent performance) and 24 x 36mm cameras (larger lens, more expensive bodies).
If I had a desire to use third-party lenses I am sure I would feel differently. But I sold everything else and just use the Fujinons.
I think the XP-2 might not have an OVF. If so, I will just pick up an nice used XP-1 for a second body and use the lenses I own.