Which Mamiya Six is this?

[godfrog]

On my recent trip to Tokyo I picked up two Mamiya Six folders. One is a Automat (with Zuiko lens), I feel almost guilty having paid only 200$ for that one. Great condition, including case, frame counter/frame advance/automatic shutter cocking working. I used it for a few days of my trip and I'm in love, extremely well built, easy in use, nice combined viewfinder, thumb wheel focusing is very convenient.

I'd like some help identifying the other one. I paid 60$ (also with case) for this one, but it is in much worse condition than the Automat. Rangefinder spot a bit weak, red window cover damaged, and the lens is scratched and just a tiny bit hazy. I've tried to identify it but can't find a mention of a Mamiya Six with the lens I have. It reads "SETAGAYA KOKI SEKOR S. 1:3.5 F=7.5cm No.######". It is red-window frame advance only, dual format (6x6 and 6x4.5), no double exposure prevention that I can find, Copal MX shutter (max 1/300). Any ideas?

 

[eia41]

Why this obsession (practised by the vast majority of RF members) of hiding serial nos? In your case it might help the identification.

 

[godfrog]

I didn't realize I was "obsessing" about anything. On public forums, I generally avoid including information that can be tied to me or anything I own. If you are interested in why I do that, you could try asking me, but I'll probably not answer to those considering that habit "an obsession".

 

[kuzano]

Oddball, or somewhat unique....

Oddball, or somewhat unique....

The camera pictured has a lot of evidence of being very near the Automat in age.
1) straight sides on the upper deck over the view window. Prior to the automat, the side near the shutter button had a sweeping S curve.
2) The shutter looks very much like the shutter on the Automat with the conical shape on the front. Prior shutters did not have that cone shape.
3) the door button is very like the automat. Prior buttons to open the front door were on top of the camera as I recall.

Does it cock the shutter when you wind on? Thats Automat like function.

Looks to me like a later version of the automat with a move to a Sekor variant on the lens, perhaps even a prototype.

I don't think it's any of the models prior to the Automat, considering the Automat style top deck, the door latch and the shutter that I am almost certain was used on the Automat.

Shutter cocking on wind-on would be another Automat evidence.

Not sure about the dual format. Does it have blinds inside that you close down for 6X4.5, and open for 6X6.

Mamiya did play around with lenses somewhat. When the marketing for the Mamiya Z series 35 cameras was taken over by Osawa, they moved from Mamiya Sekor lenses and sold a lot of their 35mm camera bodies with Osawa lenses. I seem to recall that the end of the Mamiya 35mm cameras occurred when Osawa filed bankruptcy.

The 35mm Mamiya were quite nice and as small or smaller than Olympus OM and most of the other small body 35 ventures. There are still a lot of the Mamiya ZE, ZEII, and ZM cameras still in the market place. Quartz timed and vertical shutter blades. Compact and light. Very small, and high quality lenses. The ZE was automatic only and the ZEII and ZM had manual function which could override the Aperture Preferred automation. Sweet.

You have an unusual camera there, insofar as my experience is concerned.

 

[godfrog]

Thank you for your reply. The camera does not cock the shutter when winding on. It really is a very simple version, there is no automation of any kind (no counter, no double exposure prevention, no auto-cocking). That is one of the reasons I got it, less things that can fail 🙂

It does have blinds inside the camera, used for cropping to 6x4.5.

 

[nikon_sam]

I didn't realize I was "obsessing" about anything. On public forums, I generally avoid including information that can be tied to me or anything I own. If you are interested in why I do that, you could try asking me, but I'll probably not answer to those considering that habit "an obsession".

Hold on there "20 Posts"...you're asking for help and then biting the heads off those trying...You could give maybe the first three or four numbers in that Top Secret Serial number and then xxx out the last few...that way those trying to help don't get their hands all tied up and you still have your privacy...
Good luck getting this little gem up and running again...remember work with those trying to help...😀

 

[kuzano]

Sounds like a simpified Automat

Sounds like a simpified Automat

Thank you for your reply. The camera does not cock the shutter when winding on. It really is a very simple version, there is no automation of any kind (no counter, no double exposure prevention, no auto-cocking). That is one of the reasons I got it, less things that can fail 🙂

It does have blinds inside the camera, used for cropping to 6x4.5.

Sounds like Mamiya (or someone) was experimenting with a simplified Automat. I definitely recognize those pieces I mention before as being Automat or post automat.

Frankly, it would have been my desire to have one. After three automats, I gave up. In fact the only reliable function I found and would want in an Automat would be the shutter cocking and that's not actually a big item, what with the manual override on cocking.

I never met an Automat that did not need the film count and stop mechanism stripped out for reliable (and by that I mean DAILY) operation. I don't know what they did on the film count of the Automat, but on three previous versions, I never had a problem with the film count.

I will say that the film count hardware is the most Rube Goldberg set of gears, cams, springs and levers I have ever encountered. So much more so than the Voigtlander Perkeo II system, which I also bad mouth loudly.

The camera you posted looks like an ideal solution to ALL the problems I have encountered on the Mamiya Six Automat. I do have an Automat that I stripped down like this, and it's actually a usable camera with excellent image generation. I attribute this to the lens (in my case Zuiko) and the movable film plane focus. I suspect the movable film plane focus is responsible for good film flatness characteristics. The Mamiya Six is a marvelous camera without the automation. Catering to the simpering crowds killed the camera for serious photographers who were OK with ruby windows and cocking the shutter.

I'll give you $100 for it if it all works.😀 If the lens happens not to be as good as the Zuiko, what do you want to bet that the Zuiko cells will fit in that shutter. If the lens was a prototype, I'm sure Mamiya made sure it was a good one.

However, it's sounding to me like this may have been a one-off, modified by a user who encountered all the same shortcomings of the Automat.

 

[kuzano]

Thanks Chippy...

Thanks Chippy...

the camera is a legit, if not a common Mamiya folding model (as common as a Mamiya-6 can be at least) its not an experiment by any means (there were both Automatic and non Automatic versions sold). that style top was introduced in the mid 50's, 1955 to nail it down, right in the middle i am pretty sure, the one pictured appears to have a Copal MX shutter (instead of the previous year model that used the Seikosha shutter and Zuiko lens) and is dual format... so at a glance it looks like a 1956 Mamiya-6 (KII version). note that it is actualy a Mamiya-6 not the written word Six (they are yet much earlier versions) even though it is incorrectly written on the net and indeed camerapedia as that too, and just in case that is confused with the later black plastic non folding Mamiya 6, the (very) small identifying difference in the model designations is that on the folding Mamiya-6 the hyphen is meant to be written...capable camera, $60 for a working example is a good price, although prices can be all over the place (up to a few hundred if you get a few desperate's in the same space or when the economy is flush with cash) strictly speaking its value would be $100-$150ish though

It's always welcome when someone fleshes out these "lesser known" models. I absolutely agree that $60 is a good price. In fact, in my estimation, it's a phenomenal price for a camera that's probably a considerably better daily performer than the more complex Mamiya Six folders... Automat.

Glad to add this info to my archive. Thanks.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

I didn't realize I was "obsessing" about anything. On public forums, I generally avoid including information that can be tied to me or anything I own. If you are interested in why I do that, you could try asking me, but I'll probably not answer to those considering that habit "an obsession".

Yeah, what's wrong with you? The Internet is the safest place there is, with no crooks or scammers running amok. How dare, I say, how dare you? 🙄


BTW, the s/n can be seen in the second photo. 😱

 

[Brian Legge]

I will say that the film count hardware is the most Rube Goldberg set of gears, cams, springs and levers I have ever encountered. So much more so than the Voigtlander Perkeo II system, which I also bad mouth loudly.

If you still have a Perkeo II sitting around, I have a WTB in the classifieds here... 😉

 

[godfrog]

Thanks for the additional information! It does seem like a Mamiya-6 KII, I guess this model (at least with the Setagaya Koki Sekor S. lens) is not very common.

About the name, I'm going to do my part of stopping the confusion by using "Mamiya-6" from now on. "Mamiya 6" for the more modern non-folding RF, "Mamiya-6" for the folder".

About the simplicity of the camera, I like it, but there are a couple of things that make me much prefer the Automat. The most important one is the double exposure prevention, I'd be happy with just an indication (does not need to lock the shutter). Other things I miss are the higher shutterspeeds for bright light shooting, and the bigger viewfinder of the Automat.

 

[kuzano]

Only a keeper left.

Only a keeper left.

If you still have a Perkeo II sitting around, I have a WTB in the classifieds here... 😉

The only Perkeo II I have left is my best 6X6 shooter because of the sturdy construction, excellent life on the Voigtlander bellows, and the Color Skopar lens.

Otherwise all the film count mechanism and double prevention mechanism is stripped out. Same with my Automat Film count mechanism.

I had three Perkeo II's and three Automats. Using them rigorously was like walking around just waiting for those gears to skip a beat or lock up.

My automat is down right now, since the rangefinder mirror went to Certo 6 for resilvering, but the Perkeo is in my bag most of the time. Neither are for sale, since they are modified to "reliable".

 

[FatBear]

It does seem like a Mamiya-6 KII

+1 (Sorry if I'm late to the ball). There is one of these for sale on ebay right now at about $175 and I think another at $185.

 

[Bar8barian]

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