hjohnb3
Newbie
If you're prepared to put the money into a new system, you could consider the new Bessa III 6x7, but it's quite a full price, especially compared with the Fuji's. Another choice, not any cheaper however, would be the old Plaubel Makinon 67 or the 67W with sharp Nikkor lenses. I use these, they have good viewfinders and accurate focusing, and despite the weight they are as handholdable as you're going to get with an MF camera in reasonably good light, with similar ergonomy and weight balance as the old folders (but always better with tripod or pod).
The Mamiya 6 and 7 are really excellent camera/lens systems (not without faults) but I wouldn't rely on them for pinpoint focusing, more for landscapes.
IMHO if you're going to go to the trouble of MF, in 6x6 you will find better choices with an SLR or TLR system, but 6x7 and 6x9 format sizes in RF systems (and Pentax 67 SLR) are very compelling. Just don't overlook the fast-diminishing dof in 6x9, which really comprises handholdability.
The Mamiya 6 and 7 are really excellent camera/lens systems (not without faults) but I wouldn't rely on them for pinpoint focusing, more for landscapes.
IMHO if you're going to go to the trouble of MF, in 6x6 you will find better choices with an SLR or TLR system, but 6x7 and 6x9 format sizes in RF systems (and Pentax 67 SLR) are very compelling. Just don't overlook the fast-diminishing dof in 6x9, which really comprises handholdability.
There's been only brief mention so far of the new 6x7 folding twins from Voigtlander and Fuji, convertible to 6x6. I'm not fond of square format, but being convertible broadens its appeal to those who are. 
It has a fixed lens, but does feature AE, and a folding camera is a whole other matter for likes/dislikes and (dis)advantages. Certainly something to consider, as the only current-production MF film RF camera.
I've never used a Mamiya 7II but what I've read lends it respect. It probably is the best RF choice for a wider range of available lenses. I do have a Fuji GW670III with its fixed 90mm and don't care for it as much as I'd hoped and expected. Variable frame spacing with 220 film is just one example leading to my opinion it's a bit crude.
Getting down to 645 format, I also have the Fuji GS645S, very light and small (and noisy) that has a great lens and viewfinder. Also have the all-auto p&s Fuji GA645Wi, wide angle version. My first AF camera, and that took some getting used to, but it performs very well and a particularly excellent choice for the wide 45mm lens, the full area easily seen in the VF.
I'm sure that the sleekest most modern and convenient interchangeable-lens medium format RF is the Bronica RF645, which upon introduction stepped into the hole in the market where pros were switching to digital. So it wasn't made very long, unfortunately. Other than being some 2cm taller, it's dimensionally similar to a Leica M camera. I like the RF645 so much I have two of them.
The other downside is the shortage of lenses, the original 135 having been recalled in favor of the newer but still rare 100mm. The normal 65mm is easy of course, and the 45mm isn't hard to find either, but that's it. And there are not 45mm framelines in the VF, though the whole window can suffice. I have partnered an RF645 with 65mm plus the Fuji GA645Wi with its 45mm as a useful pairing.
Edit: An excellent pairing would be the Fuji GA645 with 60mm and the Fuji GA645Wi with 45mm, as they work the same. If you will go with 6x4.5cm and are happy with AE and AF. I have stayed clear of the later GA645Zi because of the zoom, only 55-90mm, and at the long end the max aperture is a slow f/6.9... I expect in order to keep the size and weight down.
Finally, off the topic, I love the big Pentaxes. I've had an old 6x7 since 1977, later got another, and more recently got two P67II bodies. These are just so comfortable to use and carry, IMHO, with a wide strap, that despite the bulk I'm happy to have one over a shoulder all day. I have mixed feelings about the P645NII bodies, sophisticated though they are, partly due to the long video-camera feel and they're not all that much smaller and lighter than the 67.
Good luck and happy shopping!
It has a fixed lens, but does feature AE, and a folding camera is a whole other matter for likes/dislikes and (dis)advantages. Certainly something to consider, as the only current-production MF film RF camera.I've never used a Mamiya 7II but what I've read lends it respect. It probably is the best RF choice for a wider range of available lenses. I do have a Fuji GW670III with its fixed 90mm and don't care for it as much as I'd hoped and expected. Variable frame spacing with 220 film is just one example leading to my opinion it's a bit crude.
Getting down to 645 format, I also have the Fuji GS645S, very light and small (and noisy) that has a great lens and viewfinder. Also have the all-auto p&s Fuji GA645Wi, wide angle version. My first AF camera, and that took some getting used to, but it performs very well and a particularly excellent choice for the wide 45mm lens, the full area easily seen in the VF.
I'm sure that the sleekest most modern and convenient interchangeable-lens medium format RF is the Bronica RF645, which upon introduction stepped into the hole in the market where pros were switching to digital. So it wasn't made very long, unfortunately. Other than being some 2cm taller, it's dimensionally similar to a Leica M camera. I like the RF645 so much I have two of them.
The other downside is the shortage of lenses, the original 135 having been recalled in favor of the newer but still rare 100mm. The normal 65mm is easy of course, and the 45mm isn't hard to find either, but that's it. And there are not 45mm framelines in the VF, though the whole window can suffice. I have partnered an RF645 with 65mm plus the Fuji GA645Wi with its 45mm as a useful pairing.
Edit: An excellent pairing would be the Fuji GA645 with 60mm and the Fuji GA645Wi with 45mm, as they work the same. If you will go with 6x4.5cm and are happy with AE and AF. I have stayed clear of the later GA645Zi because of the zoom, only 55-90mm, and at the long end the max aperture is a slow f/6.9... I expect in order to keep the size and weight down.
Finally, off the topic, I love the big Pentaxes. I've had an old 6x7 since 1977, later got another, and more recently got two P67II bodies. These are just so comfortable to use and carry, IMHO, with a wide strap, that despite the bulk I'm happy to have one over a shoulder all day. I have mixed feelings about the P645NII bodies, sophisticated though they are, partly due to the long video-camera feel and they're not all that much smaller and lighter than the 67.
Good luck and happy shopping!
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sevo
Fokutorendaburando
The latter is besides the point - you don't need to zoom if you don't want to, and in terms of IQ, the zoom (probably the most complex ever in terms of element count to range, with ten elements in a 1.6x) beats almost every fixed length 645 lens. For the best in 645 image quality in the smallest possible package, there is no way around it - the older Fuji folders have more mechanical issues than anybody could like, the Bronica RF with lens has to travel apart in two coat pockets where the Zi fits into one, 645 SLRs are four times the bulk, and old pre-war 6x4.5 folders have less than one quarter of the linear resolution of the Zi.
That the GA645Zi is extremely clumsy at manual focusing is a more limiting factor - if you can neither work with nor around its AF, it's not for you.
Sevo
kuzano
Veteran
Let's consider NEGATIVE AREA???
Let's consider NEGATIVE AREA???
OK... using the 135mm film format as a baseline, the following considerations come into play:
6X4.5 negative is 3 times the negative area of 35mm frame. I do use a GA645Zi for this format and it is everything positive that has been mentioned in this thread. I just had it serviced (CameraWiz,,, but Fuji still services them also) Shutter was deemed to be within spec and serviced, new digital screen on back of camera. The service cost came to $170. The camera shows 32,400 shutter clicks. The GA645Zi is a great, compact, single solution for 55 to 90mm focal length, AF, sharp images, great metering. Approx the same length/width as the Bronica 645 and the Mamiya 6/7, but thinner due to a compact lens zoom configuration.
6X9 negative is 6 times the negative area of 35mm frame.
I've already mentioned that I use the Fuji 6X9 with both the 65mm and 100mm lenses. Also have the Mamiya Press Universal down to 50mm.
4X5 inch cut sheet film (large format) is 14.7 times larger than the 35mm frame.
Regarding the comment about the fun starting at 6X17... I agree, but that's also where the big money enters the picture.
My solution. I use my big Fuji rangefinder, or the Press camera. I shoot 6X9 and shoot two or three frames end to end. Those are scanned and stitched together with Panorama software. The result is either a 617 or 624 panorama, done with a $1000 camera/lens. I've compared these images to those shot with the Fuji 617 and find them comparable in Image Quality.
I'm still going to push for the Fuji solutions. Or, if you want to take the time to really seek quality images, the Mamiya Press or Large Format are certainly options.
I personally think the best compromise is the 6X9 negative which is the same aspect ratio as the 35mm frame, so there should be a good comfort level in moving up from 35mm. All the other frame sizes discussed in this post involve new framing and composition issues.
Let's consider NEGATIVE AREA???
Maybe it's just me, but I've always been of the opinion that if you're going to shoot medium format, you might as well take a serious leap in negative size. While the 645 format is obviously bigger than 135, I know I figured I'd go for 6x6 at a minimum (if you like square, I do) or 6x7 for a more typical aspect ratio. 6x8 and 6x9 are nice too, but a little less common.
Of course 6x17 is where the fun really begins, but...
The real decision process should be format first; then decide what cameras are available in that format and go from there.
OK... using the 135mm film format as a baseline, the following considerations come into play:
6X4.5 negative is 3 times the negative area of 35mm frame. I do use a GA645Zi for this format and it is everything positive that has been mentioned in this thread. I just had it serviced (CameraWiz,,, but Fuji still services them also) Shutter was deemed to be within spec and serviced, new digital screen on back of camera. The service cost came to $170. The camera shows 32,400 shutter clicks. The GA645Zi is a great, compact, single solution for 55 to 90mm focal length, AF, sharp images, great metering. Approx the same length/width as the Bronica 645 and the Mamiya 6/7, but thinner due to a compact lens zoom configuration.
6X9 negative is 6 times the negative area of 35mm frame.
I've already mentioned that I use the Fuji 6X9 with both the 65mm and 100mm lenses. Also have the Mamiya Press Universal down to 50mm.
4X5 inch cut sheet film (large format) is 14.7 times larger than the 35mm frame.
Regarding the comment about the fun starting at 6X17... I agree, but that's also where the big money enters the picture.
My solution. I use my big Fuji rangefinder, or the Press camera. I shoot 6X9 and shoot two or three frames end to end. Those are scanned and stitched together with Panorama software. The result is either a 617 or 624 panorama, done with a $1000 camera/lens. I've compared these images to those shot with the Fuji 617 and find them comparable in Image Quality.
I'm still going to push for the Fuji solutions. Or, if you want to take the time to really seek quality images, the Mamiya Press or Large Format are certainly options.
I personally think the best compromise is the 6X9 negative which is the same aspect ratio as the 35mm frame, so there should be a good comfort level in moving up from 35mm. All the other frame sizes discussed in this post involve new framing and composition issues.
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Zonan
Well-known
I bought this camera from Sandy, and it is sweet! Had one some years ago and sold it to my regret (sound familiar?). Wonderful IQ in a reasonably small package. Yes, a few quirks, but don't they all?
Rick
venchka
Veteran
Zonan,
Good for you! Enjoy!
Good for you! Enjoy!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
No-one has yet mentioned 'baby' Linhofs. Slow, yes (separate shutter cocking ind wind-on) but you can get quite fast with practice; lenses second to none; choice of formats (I like 56x72 mm)... I also have Graflex XL and Polaroid 600SE with back adapter and 75 + 127 mm lenses. Then there are the scale-focus Alpas: my wife and I have one each.
I completely agree about format. 645 tips the balance, but 6x7 is a lot nicer. A 3x enlargement of 56x72mm (Linhof's '6x7', bigger than most) is whole-plate and should be indistinguishable from a contact print if you use Delta 100. Oh: and 56x84mm (the normal 6x9 size) is 5.4x the area of 24x36mm, not 6x.
Cheers,
R.
I completely agree about format. 645 tips the balance, but 6x7 is a lot nicer. A 3x enlargement of 56x72mm (Linhof's '6x7', bigger than most) is whole-plate and should be indistinguishable from a contact print if you use Delta 100. Oh: and 56x84mm (the normal 6x9 size) is 5.4x the area of 24x36mm, not 6x.
Cheers,
R.
kuzano
Veteran
Apologies on the numbers....
Apologies on the numbers....
25 years in banking.... Always round up when it favors the house.
I used 58X90, but the bottom line is that the numbers for MF and LF over 35mm are huge.
But, I still go back to my first post in this thread. Make sure that the processing issue is handled. MF cameras that sit in the closet are of no photographic value.
I never had the good fortune to use a Baby Linhof, but a good friend has used one for very many years. His work is incredibly good.
Apologies on the numbers....
25 years in banking.... Always round up when it favors the house.
I used 58X90, but the bottom line is that the numbers for MF and LF over 35mm are huge.
But, I still go back to my first post in this thread. Make sure that the processing issue is handled. MF cameras that sit in the closet are of no photographic value.
I never had the good fortune to use a Baby Linhof, but a good friend has used one for very many years. His work is incredibly good.
nonot
Well-known
Thanks again for the suggestions here,
I've decided to go with an Alpa 12, it just seems to make sense for me given my unlimited budget and sheer disregard for my would-be children's financial future.
No but seriously, I'm looking more and more at the Mamiya 7, but the fuji GW690 that is available (even with a fixed lens) seems like a decent contender as well. I already have a Contax G2 so my autofocus needs are met... it would be nice to have something that I can fine tune.
Anyway, I'll be committing myself just after the holidays, thanks again for your help!
I've decided to go with an Alpa 12, it just seems to make sense for me given my unlimited budget and sheer disregard for my would-be children's financial future.
No but seriously, I'm looking more and more at the Mamiya 7, but the fuji GW690 that is available (even with a fixed lens) seems like a decent contender as well. I already have a Contax G2 so my autofocus needs are met... it would be nice to have something that I can fine tune.
Anyway, I'll be committing myself just after the holidays, thanks again for your help!
nonot
Well-known
"Toronto is just like New York, except without all the stuff" - Steve Martin
Is there a reason why it's so hard to find processing in nyc? We have several places here that will do a roll of 120 for around 5-6 (Canadian) Dollars and have it back to you within 3 days.
mark-b
Well-known
I recommend the Mamiya 7II, because I have one. The so-called issue about the rangefinder getting out of adjustment only applies to unreasonably rough handling.
Turtle
Veteran
How many have you owned though? I suspect some are sensitive and others rock solid based on the large number of user comments I have read from trusted people. I own two. one new and smack on and the other used and vertically out a little. Seeing as I use that one with wides it matters not. Still, it is 100% as new and not a knock in sight. Same with RF645, they can drift. Never had an issue with a Leica M tho.