sf
Veteran
would you buy a Bronica RF645 with a very very early serial number?
I am considering buying one from the local shop, but the serial is 1006 which scares me because I have seen some with serials in the millions.
Also, and I am getting serious about buying a MF RF in the next week because I simply can't take the GAS anymore : which camera would be the best use of a thousand bucks? Bronica RF645, Mamiya 6, Fuji GA645ZI or the Non-Zoom version. . .
I am really split between the Fuji AF RFs and the Bronica. I like the Mamiya because I'd never have to turn it on end to shoot, and the glass is legendary, but it is just too expensive to add lenses to, and I didn't really like it that well when i held it. ANd the focus is too slippery for my tastes. And actually, the fact that it has bellows makes me nervous - something else to go wrong at the worst moment.
Any input would be very valuable, since I doubt any other source of information would be more accurate and sincere than our beloved RFF.
Thanks
I am considering buying one from the local shop, but the serial is 1006 which scares me because I have seen some with serials in the millions.
Also, and I am getting serious about buying a MF RF in the next week because I simply can't take the GAS anymore : which camera would be the best use of a thousand bucks? Bronica RF645, Mamiya 6, Fuji GA645ZI or the Non-Zoom version. . .
I am really split between the Fuji AF RFs and the Bronica. I like the Mamiya because I'd never have to turn it on end to shoot, and the glass is legendary, but it is just too expensive to add lenses to, and I didn't really like it that well when i held it. ANd the focus is too slippery for my tastes. And actually, the fact that it has bellows makes me nervous - something else to go wrong at the worst moment.
Any input would be very valuable, since I doubt any other source of information would be more accurate and sincere than our beloved RFF.
Thanks
W
wlewisiii
Guest
From following your postings, I'd suggest the Fuji GA645Zi. It's really more of a very high end point and shoot than a RF, the lens speed is low (though not really that bad by MF/LF standards) and the zoom range is smaller than I'd prefer (if only they had gone to 110/120mm max zoom), it still seems to fit what I understand to be what you want to do the best. The plus side is good Fuji glass, it does cover semi-wide to normal quite nicely and this months KEH catalog shows one for $616 (BGN condition).
Of course, it's also the one _I_ want out of that list, so my objectivity is just a bit suspect...
William
Of course, it's also the one _I_ want out of that list, so my objectivity is just a bit suspect...
William
sf
Veteran
thanks
thanks
I will probably choose the Fuji in the end, but I have always wanted a Bronica. I just LOVE the way it feels. Everything about it is pleasing to me. Hefty, sturdy, nice glass, nice focusing, nice VF. And it looks like a camera. The fujis are just not camera-esque enough for me. Too toylike. Too P&S. Like having one of those little cheapy Bell and Howell cameras that drug stores sell. One with giantism.
But, I DO like the AF feature. In fact, I need it. My eyesight is not perfect, and I can't stand wrestling with focusing on the street. I like the fact that it loads by catching Fuji film in its little hole. Sounds funny.. . . And I like that the body is really durable (the ZI at least). I would probably never shoot with the "telephoto" range, but rather the wide and normal ranges.
thanks
I will probably choose the Fuji in the end, but I have always wanted a Bronica. I just LOVE the way it feels. Everything about it is pleasing to me. Hefty, sturdy, nice glass, nice focusing, nice VF. And it looks like a camera. The fujis are just not camera-esque enough for me. Too toylike. Too P&S. Like having one of those little cheapy Bell and Howell cameras that drug stores sell. One with giantism.
But, I DO like the AF feature. In fact, I need it. My eyesight is not perfect, and I can't stand wrestling with focusing on the street. I like the fact that it loads by catching Fuji film in its little hole. Sounds funny.. . . And I like that the body is really durable (the ZI at least). I would probably never shoot with the "telephoto" range, but rather the wide and normal ranges.
sf
Veteran
how many zoom choices do I have with the Zi?
how many zoom choices do I have with the Zi?
which zoom settings does the GA645Zi have? Does it have two or three? I know that it has zoom stops, not a gradient of zoom settings, which is fine, but does it have just the 55 and 90 or does it have 55, normal, 90?
OH, is DOES have smooth gradations of zoom! Nice. Didn't know that.
how many zoom choices do I have with the Zi?
which zoom settings does the GA645Zi have? Does it have two or three? I know that it has zoom stops, not a gradient of zoom settings, which is fine, but does it have just the 55 and 90 or does it have 55, normal, 90?
OH, is DOES have smooth gradations of zoom! Nice. Didn't know that.
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I have assumed the Zi lens has continuously variable focal length, but I've not used one so I dunno! A good review should reveal this detail. I have a GA645Wi, the wide 45mm lens version. The ability to "catch" Fuji film leader by its hole is not a feature of the camera at all, just a feature of the Fuji film spool. If the previous roll of film you used was not Fuji, that is, the takeup spool is some other brand, then the next roll of Fuji you load won't find a little catch to latch to. Just use a Fuji film spool on the takeup side when loading Fuji film (even in the Bronica!), if you want to take advantage of this little feature.
I like the 645Wi because it focuses to 2.3 ft, better than the 3.3 ft of the Bronica 45mm and 65mm lenses. Don't know how close the Zi focuses, but that lens was just too slow for me to consider. The AF has certain advantages, and it's a smart AF... If your eyesight makes AF important, this is a good one. But it still misses focus more often than I like. Mostly my fault, but manual focus has advantages too. I do like the GA's data recording feature too.
But I use my Bronica RF645 more, and even got a second body. An earlier one, used, still with the original 135mm lens framelines. KEH seemed to get a bunch of these... But finding a 135mm lens is going to be tough I think. You might try to find out if that early one at the store has been "upgraded" with the 100mm framelines. My old one's serial number is about 4500, and the later ones produced with 100mm framelines all had serial numbers with the first digit being 1.... My late one is in the 1100000 range.
The Bronica has basic controls similar to a Leica or CV Bessa... I found them very familiar and intuitive, making the camera an easy alternative. The rangefinder is very crisp and contrasty, with sharply-defined spot as with Leica, not the fuzzy poor RF spot of the older Fuji GS645. The Fuji GA has frame-field-size correction in the viewfinder as well as parallax compensation. And it has an LCD and some digital modal controls, moreso than the Contax G series.
Just use a Fuji film spool on the takeup side when loading Fuji film (even in the Bronica!), if you want to take advantage of this little feature.I like the 645Wi because it focuses to 2.3 ft, better than the 3.3 ft of the Bronica 45mm and 65mm lenses. Don't know how close the Zi focuses, but that lens was just too slow for me to consider. The AF has certain advantages, and it's a smart AF... If your eyesight makes AF important, this is a good one. But it still misses focus more often than I like. Mostly my fault, but manual focus has advantages too. I do like the GA's data recording feature too.
But I use my Bronica RF645 more, and even got a second body. An earlier one, used, still with the original 135mm lens framelines. KEH seemed to get a bunch of these... But finding a 135mm lens is going to be tough I think. You might try to find out if that early one at the store has been "upgraded" with the 100mm framelines. My old one's serial number is about 4500, and the later ones produced with 100mm framelines all had serial numbers with the first digit being 1.... My late one is in the 1100000 range.
The Bronica has basic controls similar to a Leica or CV Bessa... I found them very familiar and intuitive, making the camera an easy alternative. The rangefinder is very crisp and contrasty, with sharply-defined spot as with Leica, not the fuzzy poor RF spot of the older Fuji GS645. The Fuji GA has frame-field-size correction in the viewfinder as well as parallax compensation. And it has an LCD and some digital modal controls, moreso than the Contax G series.
sf
Veteran
Doug said:I have assumed the Zi lens has continuously variable focal length, but I've not used one so I dunno! A good review should reveal this detail. I have a GA645Wi, the wide 45mm lens version. The ability to "catch" Fuji film leader by its hole is not a feature of the camera at all, just a feature of the Fuji film spool. If the previous roll of film you used was not Fuji, that is, the takeup spool is some other brand, then the next roll of Fuji you load won't find a little catch to latch to.
thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression that something else was going on. But of course what you described makes alot more sense. I was wondering how the camera would wind the film back. . . just a late night. I always use Fuji film anyway, so no problems there.
I would prefer the Bronica - but only emotionally. Buying the Bronica would make my happiest, but only in a self-serving, sort of illogical way. I know that the Fuji will end up being the most reasonable. This camera will come travelling with me to Europe for a couple of weeks of hiking around. I think the AF, small size, and relative ease of use that the Fuji offers may be the best. I generally shoot 400ASA films like Neopan and HP5 (will switch to Neopan now for the little hooky thing).
QUESTION : how fast IS the AF anyway? Is it slow and noisey or quick and quiet or a little of both?
The GA645Zi is a later version of the camera body, so I don't know how much similarity the AF has with the previous model with fixed focal length lens... But mine is pretty quick, though in honesty I always pick a spot for it to focus, press the shutter half-way to lock the setting, then recompose. So I'm the slow component in the sequence!
I've pretty well settled on Fuji NPZ 800 if I anticipate any interior shooting... And I over-ride the Fuji's film-speed sensing by manually setting the ISO to 500. I'd think the faster film would be even more useful for the slower 55-90 zoom of the Zi. Grain is amazingly fine even in the 35mm size, and the colors are great. Take a look at my gallery for a bunch of samples.
If I have a second body that I can dedicate to outdoor shooting only, I'll load it with NPS 160 (with ISO set to 100). For your black and white Neopan or HP5, if you plan on souping with Diafine you should be able to shoot it around ISO 800 I believe... I choose the 220 film size for the 32 exposures. With Tri-X Prof at EI 1000 I drop 2 stops with a dark yellow filter outdoors and remove the filter indoors... works out pretty well, and that might be good for you as well with the slower lens.
I've pretty well settled on Fuji NPZ 800 if I anticipate any interior shooting... And I over-ride the Fuji's film-speed sensing by manually setting the ISO to 500. I'd think the faster film would be even more useful for the slower 55-90 zoom of the Zi. Grain is amazingly fine even in the 35mm size, and the colors are great. Take a look at my gallery for a bunch of samples.
If I have a second body that I can dedicate to outdoor shooting only, I'll load it with NPS 160 (with ISO set to 100). For your black and white Neopan or HP5, if you plan on souping with Diafine you should be able to shoot it around ISO 800 I believe... I choose the 220 film size for the 32 exposures. With Tri-X Prof at EI 1000 I drop 2 stops with a dark yellow filter outdoors and remove the filter indoors... works out pretty well, and that might be good for you as well with the slower lens.
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RObert Budding
D'oh!
The Bronica RF645 is a stunningly nice camera - the lenses are superb and you already know about the build quality. And it is so very quiet.
Have you considered shooting at the hyperfocal distance for street shooting? You'll get very good DOF with the 45mm lens and you can shoot as if you had a p&s camera in your hands.
I, too, considered the Fuji auto-everything cameras. I decided on the Bronica instead because of the quietness of the shutter and build quality. And the $450 rebate helped, too.
The Robert White deal is about the best I've seen of the regualrly available offers. I got very lucky - a new camera with 65mm lens for $980 from KEH. The net was only $530 after the rebate. That works out to several hundred dollars less than Robert White (their kit included the 45mm lens).
Robert
Have you considered shooting at the hyperfocal distance for street shooting? You'll get very good DOF with the 45mm lens and you can shoot as if you had a p&s camera in your hands.
I, too, considered the Fuji auto-everything cameras. I decided on the Bronica instead because of the quietness of the shutter and build quality. And the $450 rebate helped, too.
The Robert White deal is about the best I've seen of the regualrly available offers. I got very lucky - a new camera with 65mm lens for $980 from KEH. The net was only $530 after the rebate. That works out to several hundred dollars less than Robert White (their kit included the 45mm lens).
Robert
RObert Budding
D'oh!
Just checked Robert White - they've marked their kit down to $1,100! That included the camera body and the 45mm and 65mm lenses. Add another $75 for shipping. How can you resist? Ahd they sponsor RFF!
Robert
Robert
Meleica
Well-known
Meleica
Well-known
PS - the fuji's do NOT have a true zoom - it has 3 set focal lengths along the "zoom." It is not variable
oftheherd
Veteran
shutterflower said:
Well, you have probably answered your question for yourself. But, as always, when people ask about MF RF cameras, I suggest they look at the Mamiya Universal or Super Press 23 (later versions) (Is that whooshing sound I hear the price going up on the 'bay? Always seems to happen).
The first and really only disadvantage is size and weight. It really isn't as bad as some people think though. There are many advantages: Large negatives, excellent lenses, large negatives, perspective control (Super Press 23), interchangable lenses and backs, large negatives, use of sheet film if you want and polaroid (Universal if film is still available?), and did I mention large negatives? Even off the evilbay you can stay in your price with a nice system. They were made to use a screw-in diopter lens for the viewfinder but I don't know that those are easy to find any more.
As I said, you have probably answered your own question, since you have to use what you will like, but those old Mamiyas are worth a look.
W
wlewisiii
Guest
If you'd like, I can send you a pdf of the Fuji's manual; it might help answer some of your questions about the camera.
William
William
sf
Veteran
yeah, the manual would be great to have. But only if you have it at hand. It will certainly help me decide.
Thanks to all for the input
Thanks to all for the input
Turtle
Veteran
I would not assume the Fuji to be more reliable....there is a lot more electronically driven gear on the Fuji to go wrong. The Rf 645 is uilt very well and users dont seem to have probs with them. I have one early and one later serial and aside from a slightly different frosting on one of the rangefinder windows are to all intents and purposes the same. One is 000...6***.
You could always wait for a higher ser number one if you want. They feel great in the hand cos they are well built and ergonomically wonderful. That DOES matter and is not just a whim of yours. If it feels right and intuitive you will gel with it and this will help your photography. Thats how I felt about mine and I am now having more fun that I have done for a long time! I am also rather please with my hit rate, which has gone way up since I sold my 6x6 TLR!
Tom
Tom
You could always wait for a higher ser number one if you want. They feel great in the hand cos they are well built and ergonomically wonderful. That DOES matter and is not just a whim of yours. If it feels right and intuitive you will gel with it and this will help your photography. Thats how I felt about mine and I am now having more fun that I have done for a long time! I am also rather please with my hit rate, which has gone way up since I sold my 6x6 TLR!
Tom
Tom
sf
Veteran
well, the decision has been made. I thought hard about the GA645zi (and series) and the RF645, and have come to the conclusion that the motors of the ga645zi, its light falloff issues occasionally, and its manual focus issues were too much to handle - and my emotional interest in the RF645 was intense, intense enough to buy one last night.
Reasons I changed my mind away from the Fuji :
1. Fuji's zoom has light falloff
2. I really prefer manual focus, regardless of the practicality of autofocus, I find that my sharpest shots have been manual focus, even with the SLR MF I used to have.
3. The Bronica lens looks to produce outstanding contrast, color, and distortion free images - better than the fuji, by my opinion.
4. The lenses are faster.
5. The camera is more comfortable for me.
6. The camera is quiet - no motors, no zooming sounds, except the shutter charge.
7. I want to advance film by lever, when I choose to do so.
8. The Bronica just looks so sweet, and feels so good.
9. The Bronica is the best of all worlds, RF focusing, MF, build quality, price, fantastic lenses, etc.
10. I just want a REAL rangefinder, since i sold my R3A, I have wanted one, but have not found a good substitute till now.
11. I can't imagine trying to focus on something as thin as a tree branch from a distance with the GA645zi's AF. I have the assurance of having focused on the subject with the RF645.
Monday it will be sent from Robert White, and 2 days later I will be using it to shoot test rolls around Hollywood and maybe up in Santa Barbara. How they plan on getting it to me in 2 days is a mystery. And they have been great to deal with - have agreed to check the camera over for flaws like RF alignment before sending it.
Thanks Robert White, and Trelawny Burt in particular.
Reasons I changed my mind away from the Fuji :
1. Fuji's zoom has light falloff
2. I really prefer manual focus, regardless of the practicality of autofocus, I find that my sharpest shots have been manual focus, even with the SLR MF I used to have.
3. The Bronica lens looks to produce outstanding contrast, color, and distortion free images - better than the fuji, by my opinion.
4. The lenses are faster.
5. The camera is more comfortable for me.
6. The camera is quiet - no motors, no zooming sounds, except the shutter charge.
7. I want to advance film by lever, when I choose to do so.
8. The Bronica just looks so sweet, and feels so good.
9. The Bronica is the best of all worlds, RF focusing, MF, build quality, price, fantastic lenses, etc.
10. I just want a REAL rangefinder, since i sold my R3A, I have wanted one, but have not found a good substitute till now.
11. I can't imagine trying to focus on something as thin as a tree branch from a distance with the GA645zi's AF. I have the assurance of having focused on the subject with the RF645.
Monday it will be sent from Robert White, and 2 days later I will be using it to shoot test rolls around Hollywood and maybe up in Santa Barbara. How they plan on getting it to me in 2 days is a mystery. And they have been great to deal with - have agreed to check the camera over for flaws like RF alignment before sending it.
Thanks Robert White, and Trelawny Burt in particular.
Sounds like good reasoning to me! I think the lens issues with the Fuji are limited to the zoom, as the non-zoom is a 45 or 60mm f/4 that focuses close and has no fall-off I've noticed. But these earlier models may be hard to find new.
Here's a couple from last month along the CA coast with the Bronica and 45mm... the second in Cambria. Hope you enjoy your new rig!
Here's a couple from last month along the CA coast with the Bronica and 45mm... the second in Cambria. Hope you enjoy your new rig!