Which Nikon Rangefinder

[JonR]

Hi

I thought of asking you for some advice....

I am a keen photographer, grown up with Nikon SLR´s (Nikkormat Ftn, FM2, EM and so on all the way up to F90X) and I am a heavy user of Nikon DSLR´s also now (D80). At the same time I have always liked rangefinder cameras and have a number of Yashicas - I especially like the Electro 35 CC - compact, easy to use, apparature priority, 35 mm fast lens.

Now - what about Nikon Rangefinders.... is there a model that is close to the Yashica CC in usability - what would you recommend. I am not looking for collectables but for a camera to use!

Comments/Thoughts !??
😀

Jon

 

[VinceC]

None of the Nikon rangefinders have built-in metering. Not sure what you mean by usability compared to a Yashica CC. The Nikons are fully manual cameras with a longish RF baselength and interchangeable lenses. All have removable backs for loading film (no hinged door). All have the shutter button toward the rear of the camera body, directly above the film take-up spool (Nikkormats, Nikon FM2 and most later Nikons SLRs have shutter button toward the front of the camera). Minimum focus distance for wide-angle and normal lenses is 0.9 meters, 3 feet. All use a focus wheel with infinity lock for 50mm lenses that drives novice users crazy but is easy to get the hang of and allows for one-handed shooting. The most useable of the Nikons are the S3 and SP, which operate very much like Nikon Fs but are about 10 percent smaller, about the same size and weight as a Nikon FM2.

See Stephen Gandy's Website for full discussion of the models.
http://www.cameraquest.com/usingthe.htm

There are four main models:

Nikon S, built circa 1950 to 1954. Weighs 23 ounces (Yashica weighs 18 ounces, according to Gandy's Cameraquest site). Knob rewind. Two shutter-speed dials (fast and slow). Maximum shutter speed 1/500. Reduced-image viewfinder for 50mm lens with no framelines. No self-timer. Weird flash sync. Most common and affordable Nikon RF.

The S2, SP and S3 all have identical body sizes (5 1/4" wide; 2 7/8" high; 1 3/8" deep) (135mm x 75mm x 35mm) and weigh approximately 18-20 ounces (500 to 575 grams).

Nikon S2, built 1954 to 1958. Weighs 18 ounces. Fullsize 1:1 viewfinder (no image reduction) with etched frameline only for 50mm lens. Not parallax corrected. Maximum shutter speed 1/1000. Two shutter-speed dials. Modern folding film-rewind lever. No self-timer. Modern PC-socket flash sync with 1/50 x-flash speed. Rather loud shutter, makes a satsifying but audible "clack-thump."Widely available and affordable. Most cost-effective when bought along with a 50mm f/1.4 lens, which is the classic and still-excellent glass for this camera.

Nikon SP, built 1957 to early 1960s. ("P" stands for Professional). Weighs 20 ounces. Quiet shutter (not as quiet as Leica M, but advertized as a "whisper" shutter). 1:1 lifesize finder with parallax-corrected frames for 50/85/105/135mm lenses. User-selectable switch for framelines. Separate wide-angle finder for 35mm/28mm lenses, directly beside the full-size finder, shows greatly reduced image (about 1/4 life-size) with no parallax correction. The arrangement allows easy shooting of wide-angle lenses for eyeglass-wearers, but separate finders for wide-angles would allow larger image for composing. Shutter speeds up to 1/1000 in single non-rotating dial. Flash sync 1/60. Self timer. A photographic/photojournalistic tool every bit as capable as -- many would argue more capable than -- an unmetered Leica M3, M2 or M4.

Nikon S3. Built 1958 to early 1960s. Identical to the SP but with a simpler viewfinder. Very large lifesize viewfinder with three etched non-parallax-corrected framelines for 35mm(at 1:1 lifesize! Not reduced like in a Leica M), 50mm and 105mm lenses. Small etched markings give a sense of parallax correction. Otherwise identical to an SP and a little more affordable. Some dislike the "busy" viewfinder with three overlapping frames. I like it because it allows life-size framing and focusing of the 35mm lens.

The "heart" of the Nikon system is its exellent lenses. These are not inexpensive but tend to be less expensive than Nikkors in Leica mount and less expensive than their Leitz equivalents. All Nikon RF cameras were hefty, rugged professional cameras in their day, and most have aged very well.

Prices estimates for good user cameras.
Nikon S, usually under $500.
S2 -- roughly $500
S3 -- usually under $1,000
SP -- usually above $1,000

Prices will be higher in Europe.

Check EBay.

 

[JonR]

Thanks!

Thanks!

Thanks for those long postings/answeres..... will read this carefully - very good introduction and based on this I will surf around, read more discussions and eventually, I am sure, zoom in one one model....

Many thanks! 🙂 🙂 🙂
/jon

 

[JonR]

One more question...

One more question...

A couple of more questions on this topic....

1. What about the S3 2000 & SP 2005 versions -- if I want a Nikon RF to use shouldn´t those be the best to aim for given that they are more recently manufactured or are the prices so high on them due to collectors that it does not make sense !?

2. Also - what about the Bessa R2S - it will take all the great Nikon lenses and will enable TTL meetering - wouldn´t that be a major advantage.... yes - not a Nikon body but the optics is really the important stuff -- what´s the comments on this !?

Appreciate your comments!

Jon

 

[dexdog]

I have the Bessa R2C for Contax mount (same as R2S except for mount), and an R2S would be a good choice as a user too, an improvement in some ways over the original Nikons, as you have pointed out (due to the added features). Also, a lot cheaper than the re-issued SP and S3.

 

[VinceC]

Nikon S3-2000s seem to be selling for about $1,500 in Japan, but you'd need an intermediary dealer. SP-2005s seem to be about $3,500.

The lens with the S3-2000 is magnificent. Even hard-core Leica enthusiests concede it is evenly matched with the most recent Leitz 50/1.4 lenses (note the Nikon lens is a different formula than most of the classic-era lenses).

Many people love the Bessa cameras. Unlike Leica RFs, the Nikon RFs really shine with short telephoto lenses ... the Nikkor 85/2 and 105/2.5 are always ranked among the best lenses ever made by anyone anywhere. The Bessa's short RF base-length would make it a challenge to accurately focus those lenses wide open. If that's not important, the Bessa would be an excellent entry into the Nikon RF system.

You should give some thought to which lenses you'd want to use. The Nikkor 50/1.4 is classic, as are the 85/2 and 105/2.5.

The 35/2.5 is excellent and widely available. The 35/1.8 is quite expensive, usually more than $700 if you can even find one. The 28/3.5 is an excellent, tiny lens but does show its age in the form of wide-open vignetting. These lenses were all designed 50 to 60 years ago.

With Nikkor glass, that's pretty much your choice (plus a stunnngly sharp 135/3.5). If those lenses sound workable to you, consider a Nikon-based system. If you want something wider, the Nikkor 25/4 is quirky and expensive, over $1,000, and the outstanding 21/4 is so rare it sells for the price a quality used car. So if you want very wides, you'll be getting Cosina lenses. That's where you need to give serious consideration to whether or not you should get a Leica or Cosina camera with a Leica mount. You get a much wider "universe" and variety of lenses from which to choose.

The Nikon is an abandoned, orphaned system.

 

[JonR]

Thanks VinceC;
More to think about.... and you comments about the amounts of lenses available is clearly a factor to take into the account - I thought the choices where much greater.... hmmmm.... /Jon

 

[KoNickon]

The Bessa R2S is an excellent alternative, as you've figured out. And if you order the Nikon Historical Society set (like from cameraquest.com) you get one of the finest lenses made in the last few years, the 50/3.5 Heliar.

No, it's not a Nikon. But you can get one of those later!

 

[VinceC]

>> comments about the amounts of lenses available is clearly a factor to take into the account - I thought the choices where much greater.... hmmmm.... /Jon<<

Cosina has a large range of basic lenses available ... 21/4; 25/4; 28/3.5; 35/2.5; various 50s; 85/3.5. But, in my opinion, if you're putting Cosina lenses onto a Cosina camera, you might as well use a Leica-mount Bessa ... cheaper, and the system will continue evolving as new products come out. The Cosina lenses for Nikon RF largely duplicate what most user-collectors already own in Nikkor glass, so they did not sell well at all.

 

[NIKON KIU]

Get a Nikon S2 and the 5cm...don't worry about lenses,see what you can do with the 5cm first.
Unless you can afford the S3 2000 😉


Kiu

 

[michaelging]

I agree that the S2 in my opinon is the closest camera I have to my Nikon F in the way it feels in your hand. Its a fine camera that will let you have some cash for other lenses. If Money is no object then you want a SP.The 50 1.4 is a great lens,but my shooting needs a little wider lens ,so I use a 35mm nikkor 2.5 or a Contax 35mm Biogon 2.8 that I have on the camera most of the time.

 

[bobkonos]

I have both the older Nikon rangefinders (S2, S3, SP) and the R2S. And I like both (sorry, no help there). The classic Nikon rangefinder cameras will satisfy your tradition of using Nikon products and fill in the rangefinder gap in your Nikon history. The R2S will give you fantastic results, is well made and a joy to use (especially with the meter) and the CV lenses are terrific: sharp, light, well-made (I have the 21 and 25-both of which I could never afford as Nikon RF lenses-and the great 85 Apo Lanthar, which is one of the sharpest lenses I have ever used). So-what to do? I suggest getting an S2 and using it with the Voigtlander VC II meter and some C/V lenses: 25, 50, 85. The best of both worlds. And just what I have beside me as I write this.

 

[JonR]

Thanks!
Sounds to me as a S2 is the way to start given all you comments unless I can find a S3 2000 at a very good price.... Next problem will be to find one - looked last night on the web at the shops here in Sweden and there is not one single Nikon RF out for sale! So I guess I will have to keep looking --- thanks for all the good advice!
Jon

 

[Tom A]

Hej Jon, sweden really did not have an official Nikon representation for the rangefinder cameras. This is strange in one way as it was a swede who started importing Nikon's to USA first!
As for which Nikon to get - it depends on your budget and whether you are getting one "just for fun" or if you want to do serious shooting with it.
Which ever way you are going, one will not be enough! You will soon start looking for more lenses and bodies.
The most practical starter is the S2 with its 1:1 finder and a 50. The 50f1.4 is a very good lens, but do not disregard the 50/2. Less money and very good. You can really put togetther a good kit with a S2, 35/50/105 for what a S3 millenium would cost you and later you can (and will) start chasing down that black S3 Millenium and already have the lenses that go with it.
The Cosina S-lenses are the way to go for the wide-angles (21/25/28) as they are still affordable, compared to the original Nikkor lenses and better performers.
The SP is premium priced and it does have a "best of them all" reputation, but the 35/28 frame is not that great. Mechanically the S3/S4/SP are mostly the same and many of the parts are similar to the NikonF.
The critical parts of the Nikon RF's are the rangefinders. It is very difficult to find parts or experts who can repair the SP finder and when you find them, it is going to be expensive. Fortunately they are rugged cameras and you rarely find dim or 'dead" rangefinders, but always look for the best finder you can lay hands on and disregard the cosmetics. The thin "outer skin" of the Nikon's made them prone to nicks and dents - even with lightly used ones. The good thing is that if you buy it pre-dinged - it doesn't hurt as much to add your own dents to the collection!
Both the S3 Millenium and the SP 2005 is still serious money, compared to older. well used ones.
The 50/1,4 Millenium is most likely the 2nd best 50 you can find. The top-spot is the 50/1,4 Summilux Aspheric (which alone would cost more than a chrome S3 Millenium with it's 50 lens), but unless you are doing "super critical" work - you will not see the difference.
My advice is to start with a S2 and a 50/1,4 or f2 - add a 35/2,5 and a 105f2.5 as you go along. The top-mount finders are a bit of a hassle, but when you get your S3 or SP you can always put them on a shelf and look at them.
The 35/28 mini finder from Voigtlander will work well on the S2 and it is reasonably priced from cameraquest. The 105 is more difficult to find, but well worth the outlay - even when you use a SP/S3 it works better than the built in finder (less clutter - the SP is quite filled up by the time you get to 105!).
Just in case. I would also make a 21/4 VC an early addition. Voigtlander has stopped production of the S-lenses and soon they will start creeping up in price as the latecomers to the Nikon RF's start chasing down the limited supply.
I started innocently with a Nikon S and an old 35/3,5 about 8 years ago and now I have almost as many Nikons and Nikkor lenses as I have Leica M2's and Leica lenses. It is a bit of a disease and there is no known cure, so beware. You have been warned!

 

[JonR]

Tom
Thanks for long comment.
And yes - S2 with a 50 mm f/2 and then if possible also the 105 mm sounds as the starting point for me. Thanks for the other comments also. The big challenge will be to get hold of the body given that they seem to be so few around there in Sweden. EBay is of course a possibility but the my own "hit rate of OK products" when buying from EBay is not that great so for something this expensive it is not necessarily very attractive. I probably have to wait for something coming up at an auction or so...

Strange that you say that they are difficult to repair given that they are all manual - I have had no problems leaving for example my Nikon FM2 for repair -- why would a rangefinder be more difficult !+


Anyway - thanks for comments....
Jon

 

[adep]

Rarely have I seen such an in-depth and informative thread. This has been a great read! Thanks Jon for asking!

 

[VinceC]

>> EBay is of course a possibility but the my own "hit rate of OK products" when buying from EBay is not that great so for something this expensive <<

>>Strange that you say that they are difficult to repair given that they are all manual <<

I believe Tom A was referring directly to the rangefinder mechanism itself. If it is dim, it can't really be repaired ... unlike Leica's, the mirror can't be resilvered. The RF mechanism is quite delicate on any RF camera. The rest of the Nikon S-series cameras is really quite simple and repairable. The shutter, for example, is based on the Leica shutter and is easily repaired while the RF itself is a simplified version of what Leica used.

EBay cameras are not a huge risk for Nikon, because the tend to have aged very well. They aren't "finicky" and can be left in a closet for 20 years, then taken out and used immediately. They don't really need preventive maintenance and are easy to adjust and fix (except for the brightness of the rangefinder mechanism).

Based on lots of anecdotal evidence, the viewfinders of the Nikon S2s have held up better than any other Nikon viewfinders. It is tinted a bit greenish, which provides more contrast for the goldish focus spot.

Other aspects of the Nikon cameras also age very well. They used a very long-lasting lubrication (whale oil, actually) that remains effective after half a century. The lens coatings are excellent. Among other thing, Nikon during World War II made submarine periscopes and pioneered a tough, resistant optical coating that was later used on its camera lenses. Leitz lenses of the 1950s had very soft coatings that are frequently scratched and sometimes clouded. The Nikkor lenses used a tough, scratch resistant coating that had held up extremely well.

Sometimes cameras and lenses show up here on RFF, which makes for a more civilized transaction than EBay (and this forum is more tolerant of overseas transactions than many U.S.-based EBay sellers).

EDIT: To be fair, now that I think about it, the lubrication in old Nikkor lenses does tend to get a bit stiff over the half-century. They remain usable, but the focusing isn't silky smooth.

 

[JonR]

Thanks
Your comments on which cameras have "aged" best is another argument to start looking for a S2 rather than the other models....

Thought I had found what I wanted.... there was a S2 with a Nikon 5cm f/2 lens at "Greys of Westminster" n London on the web.... but the prices was 3K UKL which I guess would be something like 40.000 SEK or > 6000 USD.... far above what the comments in this discussions indicates I would have to pay....

I am hesitant to go for Ebay... not only about the risks of not getting what you think you have bought but also the transportation... looking at the classified here at this forum is a good idea and there is at least one bigger calera auction of some scale in Stockholm where I live every half year so I will be looking at what they have to offer next time around...

/J

 

[Xmas]

Robert White still had one new S3 2000 left new. See button on this sites dealer ads.

Noel

 

[Xmas]

UK beater 1.4 400-500 GBP, rip off UK

Noel