stillshunter
unlearning digital habits
I have read the various opinions on the Sigma DP1's performance vs output and do not wish to resuscitate this debate - though watching it has been both informative and entertaining.
I have settled on the Sigma DP - as it appears to suit my intended purposes. I want an every-day camera that complements my more cumbersome gear that comes out on dedicated shoots. The Sigma's 'performance issues' would actually suit the more contemplative style I am developing and applying to incidental street and landscape shots.
Well, we are on the cusp of the DP2's arrival - the camera which many are touting as the panacea for all the DP1's prior failings. However, for me it's just complicated things...as it is an alternative to the 28mm equivalent. The 41mm equivalent sounds a little faster, but even the Sigma DP2 brochure repeatedly states the camera's intended for portraiture. This is too limited for my purposes - and I believe Sigma may be selling itself short. .
So which focal length (aka which of the DPs) is the better 'all-round' camera? Or for those who intend owning both, which DP do you intend using when?
I have settled on the Sigma DP - as it appears to suit my intended purposes. I want an every-day camera that complements my more cumbersome gear that comes out on dedicated shoots. The Sigma's 'performance issues' would actually suit the more contemplative style I am developing and applying to incidental street and landscape shots.
Well, we are on the cusp of the DP2's arrival - the camera which many are touting as the panacea for all the DP1's prior failings. However, for me it's just complicated things...as it is an alternative to the 28mm equivalent. The 41mm equivalent sounds a little faster, but even the Sigma DP2 brochure repeatedly states the camera's intended for portraiture. This is too limited for my purposes - and I believe Sigma may be selling itself short. .
So which focal length (aka which of the DPs) is the better 'all-round' camera? Or for those who intend owning both, which DP do you intend using when?
kipkeston
Well-known
You're asking whether 41mm is a more all around focal length than 28mm? It is.
sniki
Well-known
Me too: IMHO - whether someone like it or not - 41mm is a more all around lenght than 28.
Definitely.
Definitely.
Sam N
Well-known
I just hope that we actually are "on the cusp of the DP2's arrival" as you say. If it's considerably faster than the DP1 in operation and can keep the same level of image quality (or even surpass it), it will be a very impressive camera.
bmattock
Veteran
Everyone has their preferences. I'd take the longer of the two, it has always been my preference. But I understand why others like the wider version.
funkaoshi
Well-known
41mm is hardly long, by any stretch. If the DP2 fixes some of the complaints people had with the DP1, I don't think you're going to regret buying a DP2. It'd be like owning a digital Canonet I guess.
I recently bought a GRDII which has to be one of the nicer digital cameras i've used in a long while. You can futz around with all the controls with one hand, more or less. I'm really happy with it.
I recently bought a GRDII which has to be one of the nicer digital cameras i've used in a long while. You can futz around with all the controls with one hand, more or less. I'm really happy with it.
stillshunter
unlearning digital habits
Digital Canonet..I like it!!
Digital Canonet..I like it!!
Great responses so far.
I like the sounds of a digital Canonet....otherwise a revisit of my old Leica CL with that sweet sweet Rokkor lens.
Well I'm almost convinced to wait until the DP2 is ready to order. If the glass is as crisp and the images processed as well as the DP1 then I'm an easy sale. I also hope the TRUEII still offers the TMax-style grain that the TRUE does. Like I said the processing and AF time is not a deal-breaker for me...but image quality is!!
I was really scratching my head on the right choice of words, and "cusp" was the least contentious I could come up with. I spoke with the Australian distributors yesterday and they've been told 4-6 weeks. Now that's here in 'backward' Australia so it must have been released in the US weeks ago already...
Digital Canonet..I like it!!
Great responses so far.
I like the sounds of a digital Canonet....otherwise a revisit of my old Leica CL with that sweet sweet Rokkor lens.
Well I'm almost convinced to wait until the DP2 is ready to order. If the glass is as crisp and the images processed as well as the DP1 then I'm an easy sale. I also hope the TRUEII still offers the TMax-style grain that the TRUE does. Like I said the processing and AF time is not a deal-breaker for me...but image quality is!!
I was really scratching my head on the right choice of words, and "cusp" was the least contentious I could come up with. I spoke with the Australian distributors yesterday and they've been told 4-6 weeks. Now that's here in 'backward' Australia so it must have been released in the US weeks ago already...
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M4streetshooter
Tourist Thru Life
hmmmm for me the 28 is more useful.....I will have both anyway but the 28 has way more DOF so the finder is more useful.
On the 41, I'm already worrying about the finder and not having enough DOF to not use the screen...on my M's, the 50 finder is useless except for framing....
I'll try it tho....soon hopefully....
shooter
stillshunter
unlearning digital habits
Thanks M4...you're not making this any easier
Thanks M4...you're not making this any easier
The reason for the initial thread was to determine the DP focal length of greatest utility. Unfortunately, I won't have the benefit of both - and to be honest as much as I'm keen to see the new m4/3 compact with the interchangablelens options I am wanting the Fovean sensor....I have Bayer's enough with my Oly dSLR kit.
I really like some of the results I've seen come out of the DP1 (from the RFF posts - you're guilty there M4shooter) and am questioning the 41mm crop/perspective. I'm pretty handy at stitching so can do so if I need with DP2. But the virtues of a distortion-free 28mm equivalent is (for my money anyway) image results that give greater context to the subject and a greater sense of the photographer being within or part of the scene. Might just be me but 35mm+ always gives the distinct impression of photographer being very separate to subject. So the results are very different.
But, yes, 28mm can add distractions, confuse subject matter, be harder to keep your feet out of frame, etc. But if the 28mm image is sharp and distortion-free across the glass, and of good quality, then crops should not be an issue???
Welcome to my confused state...:bang:
Thanks M4...you're not making this any easier
The reason for the initial thread was to determine the DP focal length of greatest utility. Unfortunately, I won't have the benefit of both - and to be honest as much as I'm keen to see the new m4/3 compact with the interchangablelens options I am wanting the Fovean sensor....I have Bayer's enough with my Oly dSLR kit.
I really like some of the results I've seen come out of the DP1 (from the RFF posts - you're guilty there M4shooter) and am questioning the 41mm crop/perspective. I'm pretty handy at stitching so can do so if I need with DP2. But the virtues of a distortion-free 28mm equivalent is (for my money anyway) image results that give greater context to the subject and a greater sense of the photographer being within or part of the scene. Might just be me but 35mm+ always gives the distinct impression of photographer being very separate to subject. So the results are very different.
But, yes, 28mm can add distractions, confuse subject matter, be harder to keep your feet out of frame, etc. But if the 28mm image is sharp and distortion-free across the glass, and of good quality, then crops should not be an issue???
Welcome to my confused state...:bang:
agoglanian
Reconnected.
I've always preferred wide angle over anything else. 28mm happens to be one of my favorite FOVs. (my personal favorite is actually 35mm) I have been shooting side by side with the DP-1 and the D-Lux 4. I greatly enjoy both for the different styles of results they give, but also the different types of shooting they offer.
The DP1 is great in daytime work, especially when pre-set and shot from the hip, it's just great fun. It also seems to excel at landscape shooting. I use the Dlux when the light gets lower because of that fast 24mm f/2 It opens up a whole bunch of possibilities. I think though. If I had to choose one, I would go with the Leica. It is more practical, and the IQ has never left me disappointed so far.
The DP1 is great in daytime work, especially when pre-set and shot from the hip, it's just great fun. It also seems to excel at landscape shooting. I use the Dlux when the light gets lower because of that fast 24mm f/2
It opens up a whole bunch of possibilities. I think though. If I had to choose one, I would go with the Leica. It is more practical, and the IQ has never left me disappointed so far.stillshunter
unlearning digital habits
Thanks for the response AG.
As I said earlier I don't intend resuscitating the LX3 vs GRDii vs DP1 debate (there's heaps out there already), but you truly prefer the quality of your low light DLux4 images? After many scouts across the Web I've found some pretty startling looking DP1 low-light shots. I hear the focusing is slower when it's dimmer, but with a manual lock I thought the Sigma rendered a dim image just nicely...or pump up the ISO - or push post-processing - and things turn out very nice. Also, and again my subjective opinion, the noise grain of the Leica/Pana looks very different from that of DP1. Doesn't it?
Anyway, how can I argue when you have, and enjoy, both of them.
So do you find yourself venturing outside the 28mm much with the DLux?
..and what is it that makes the 28mm FOV your fave?
majid
Fazal Majid
I have the DP1 but 28mm is much wider than I'd like. 50mm is where I am at. I am hesitating between the DP2 and a D-Lux 4, but leaning towards the former if the ISO 1600 samples are good.
Wiyum
Established
stillshunter, don't you have other photographic experience to draw from? I imagine you haven't had exactly a 41mm lens (and likely no 40mm lens) to use as comparison, but still... if you've used either a 35 or a 50, you can assume enough.
For me, the faster lens, improved performance, and more-useful overall focal length make the DP2 the camera to beat. I'm currently weighing my budget against the eventual release of the DP2, the return to regular availability of the LX3, and the launch of Olympus' pocketable m4/3 camera. The Nikon D700 has revolutionized my own photography in many ways, but it has also made it clear that I'm deciding to carry it or I'm not... it is cumbersome enough that I know I need something small to keep with me more frequently. Which of the three options wins out will depend on how desperate I get, how soon I reach that point, and which of the three options are available at that time. I most want the Oly m4/3, assuming it halfway meets my expectations, and I least want an LX3, but if I could buy an LX3 tomorrow for the normal $400 asking price, I think I would. Regardless, I think the DP2 is promising, both for the supposed improved performance, the faster lens, and for the focal length.
But back to my original point: do you have no experience with 28mm vs 35/50?
For me, the faster lens, improved performance, and more-useful overall focal length make the DP2 the camera to beat. I'm currently weighing my budget against the eventual release of the DP2, the return to regular availability of the LX3, and the launch of Olympus' pocketable m4/3 camera. The Nikon D700 has revolutionized my own photography in many ways, but it has also made it clear that I'm deciding to carry it or I'm not... it is cumbersome enough that I know I need something small to keep with me more frequently. Which of the three options wins out will depend on how desperate I get, how soon I reach that point, and which of the three options are available at that time. I most want the Oly m4/3, assuming it halfway meets my expectations, and I least want an LX3, but if I could buy an LX3 tomorrow for the normal $400 asking price, I think I would. Regardless, I think the DP2 is promising, both for the supposed improved performance, the faster lens, and for the focal length.
But back to my original point: do you have no experience with 28mm vs 35/50?
Jim Simmons
Member
Stillshunter, if you once had a Leica CL with a 40mm lens, then you know just how versatile that lens length can be. It is very much in line with how human vision perceives the world - a very natural point of view. But remember, the lens on the DP-2 is actually a 24.2mm lens, with a 41mm EQIVALENT focal length. This means you'll get the 40 field of view, but you'll get the depth of focus of a 24mm lens, so for street shooting, that will make an important difference. You can zone focus with a lot of confidence.
I shoot my CL with both the 40mm Summicron and a 25mm CV. I'd pretty much quit using the 40, but have recently rediscovered it, and find myself using it much more than the 25 now. I thnk the DP-2 sounds like the better all-round camera. Why then can't make this with interchangable lenses though is beyond me. Or, since it's a fixed lens, I don't see why they couldn't add a nice clear viewfinder, even if it does not have a rangefinder or parallax compensation.
I shoot my CL with both the 40mm Summicron and a 25mm CV. I'd pretty much quit using the 40, but have recently rediscovered it, and find myself using it much more than the 25 now. I thnk the DP-2 sounds like the better all-round camera. Why then can't make this with interchangable lenses though is beyond me. Or, since it's a fixed lens, I don't see why they couldn't add a nice clear viewfinder, even if it does not have a rangefinder or parallax compensation.
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M4streetshooter
Tourist Thru Life
DOF for DP2.....Hyperfocal Distance
2.8 37.2'
4.0 26.3'
5.6 18.6'
8.0 13.2'
11.0 9.36'
Remember that the DOF extends from 1/2 the HD to Inf....
Thus the reason for concern about using a finder only and not needing the screen and AF.....
2.8 37.2'
4.0 26.3'
5.6 18.6'
8.0 13.2'
11.0 9.36'
Remember that the DOF extends from 1/2 the HD to Inf....
Thus the reason for concern about using a finder only and not needing the screen and AF.....
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
As much as I like 28mm, I think 35mm is preferable for both environmental portraiture and street shooting. Some think they are close enough, but to me they are not, and the added DOF on a crop sensor would be an issue for me.
That said, I am primarily a 42mm (Oly 35SP) man. While it is sometimes a bit limiting wrt to both FOV and minimum focus on the Oly, it is the most flexible given the "restriction" of a fixed lens. Which is your situation.
As Jim Simmons stated, 40-ish mm mimics human vision -- though without much peripheral vision. The 35 "adds" the significant peripheral vision, which I think is why it is quite popular as a normal for some. It has an ease to it that is more difficult to achieve with 28.
If faced with the choice of the two Sigmas, I would be highly biased toward the DP1 due to the focal length, but a significant performance boost in the DP2 might have me learning to adapt to 28. I might end up looking for a 1.4 "tele-converter" for it.
That said, I am primarily a 42mm (Oly 35SP) man. While it is sometimes a bit limiting wrt to both FOV and minimum focus on the Oly, it is the most flexible given the "restriction" of a fixed lens. Which is your situation.
As Jim Simmons stated, 40-ish mm mimics human vision -- though without much peripheral vision. The 35 "adds" the significant peripheral vision, which I think is why it is quite popular as a normal for some. It has an ease to it that is more difficult to achieve with 28.
If faced with the choice of the two Sigmas, I would be highly biased toward the DP1 due to the focal length, but a significant performance boost in the DP2 might have me learning to adapt to 28. I might end up looking for a 1.4 "tele-converter" for it.
Kevin
Rainbow Bridge
Several posters here are still confusing the terms "focal length" (FL) and "field of view" (FOV).
The DP1 has a FL=16.6mm and an approx full-frame FOV=28mm.
The DP2 has a FL=24.2mm and an approx full-frame FOV=41mm.
Therefore both DPs have very wide angle focal lengths that are sensor cropped to give narrower fields of view.
An image made with a DP2 would have completely different perspective (magnification) than a 40mm lens on a full-frame body.
I would wager that more is in focus at any given aperture using a DP2 compared to using a 40mm lens on a 35mm (full-frame) camera.
The DP1 has a FL=16.6mm and an approx full-frame FOV=28mm.
The DP2 has a FL=24.2mm and an approx full-frame FOV=41mm.
Therefore both DPs have very wide angle focal lengths that are sensor cropped to give narrower fields of view.
An image made with a DP2 would have completely different perspective (magnification) than a 40mm lens on a full-frame body.
I would wager that more is in focus at any given aperture using a DP2 compared to using a 40mm lens on a 35mm (full-frame) camera.
M4streetshooter
Tourist Thru Life
Kevin,
So as not to confuse the issue of different FOV, Perspective does not change with different cameras, lens etc...Perspective only changes when the photographer moves..even a little bit.
The idea of changing FOV is to maintain the original perspective and adjust the FOV by changing lenses...
Not trying to step on toes but it's an all important issue when discussing FOV....
So as not to confuse the issue of different FOV, Perspective does not change with different cameras, lens etc...Perspective only changes when the photographer moves..even a little bit.
The idea of changing FOV is to maintain the original perspective and adjust the FOV by changing lenses...
Not trying to step on toes but it's an all important issue when discussing FOV....
stillshunter
unlearning digital habits
Thanks so much for everyone's input. It has been very valuable.
I'm the first to admit that my technical understanding of the digital/analog (35mm standard) equivalencies are not up to scratch. I do remember what 40mm was like on the CL, but with experience using various dSLRs I have come to appreciate some differences - esp. between what I used to see through my Nikon vs my current Olympus kit. I understand they differ by about 0.5 crop factor, however when I look at photos with similar EXIF data from each, things look different. So I took some sample shots with my Oly at 28mm and 41 (ish) mm to decide and I'm not so sure if it gives me a real appreciation. Anyway I know the easiest way to decide would be to test the DP1 and DP2 side-by-side, however as a resident of a rural area in Australia I don't have this option....as I have to order my desired unit on spec.
Frustrating?....YES!!! Hence why your help has been great. For those who provided technical detail on DoF, FoV, FL. A big thanks. See these are the things I'll need to understand from spec....it's a gamble buying 'sight unseen' so your info makes things a little clearer.
So others might be shaking their heads and wondering, "well if he's so confused, why doesn't he just buy an LX3/DLux4?". In anticipation I should have made clear that I want to, again, learn the pleasure of focusing with my feet. I have 'zooms' enough on the dSLR and this has changed how I shoot.
Again thanks to each and every one of you.
I'm the first to admit that my technical understanding of the digital/analog (35mm standard) equivalencies are not up to scratch. I do remember what 40mm was like on the CL, but with experience using various dSLRs I have come to appreciate some differences - esp. between what I used to see through my Nikon vs my current Olympus kit. I understand they differ by about 0.5 crop factor, however when I look at photos with similar EXIF data from each, things look different. So I took some sample shots with my Oly at 28mm and 41 (ish) mm to decide and I'm not so sure if it gives me a real appreciation. Anyway I know the easiest way to decide would be to test the DP1 and DP2 side-by-side, however as a resident of a rural area in Australia I don't have this option....as I have to order my desired unit on spec.
Frustrating?....YES!!! Hence why your help has been great. For those who provided technical detail on DoF, FoV, FL. A big thanks. See these are the things I'll need to understand from spec....it's a gamble buying 'sight unseen' so your info makes things a little clearer.
So others might be shaking their heads and wondering, "well if he's so confused, why doesn't he just buy an LX3/DLux4?". In anticipation I should have made clear that I want to, again, learn the pleasure of focusing with my feet. I have 'zooms' enough on the dSLR and this has changed how I shoot.
Again thanks to each and every one of you.
DougFord
on the good foot
Camera operation is more important to me then deciding between the focal lengths provided by these two options.
In the P&S camera world, its vital to me that the lens moves into the pre-selected ‘manual/zone’ focus position and remains there for an extended period of time and during multiple frames. This reduces any AF shutter lag and it also mimics the way that I would use a rangefinder camera. I scale focus a RF lens somewhere around 2 meters, I just push the shutter button when I want to take a picture. I fiddle with the lens/scale focus adjustment once and a while but rarely do I look through the finder to achieve exact focus.
Regardless of focal length, if the new DP2 doesn’t have this required operation then I won’t even consider it, even though I really like the image character that this sensor provides.
Also consider that the Samsung nx is on the way. If this beast will allow m-mount lenses via an adapter then you’ll have FOV choices and scale/manual focus capability.
In the P&S camera world, its vital to me that the lens moves into the pre-selected ‘manual/zone’ focus position and remains there for an extended period of time and during multiple frames. This reduces any AF shutter lag and it also mimics the way that I would use a rangefinder camera. I scale focus a RF lens somewhere around 2 meters, I just push the shutter button when I want to take a picture. I fiddle with the lens/scale focus adjustment once and a while but rarely do I look through the finder to achieve exact focus.
Regardless of focal length, if the new DP2 doesn’t have this required operation then I won’t even consider it, even though I really like the image character that this sensor provides.
Also consider that the Samsung nx is on the way. If this beast will allow m-mount lenses via an adapter then you’ll have FOV choices and scale/manual focus capability.